there were several opportunities presented where characters were getting busy with each other.
take her by the hand, stand up and say, 'comeon Im tired of wathcing OP. lets go have our own fun.'
tell me her response, and then give your own nonplacating, non fearfull, confidant response.
She's been positively friendly lately. Is it a result of last week's IWTMLWYOAW? Its a result of having a little bit of respect for you standing up for yourself Or is it just where we are right now? If you stick with this 'do nothing' behavior she will be irritable and picky within a week. Do I wait for it to get a bit nasty before bringing it up again, Nop allready answered this question or is that just being reactive to her mood? Why do you care, do it for you not for her action or reaction. Are these periods of calm necessary for her to get to a point of trust/love/affection? NO. Affection is not the same as attraction. Or are they just periods of calm? She feels good about you and her, when you take charge of the R. She is hoping you keep it up. Or, somewhat horrible to think about, are they calmness, calculated to pacify me when she knows I'm wanting to push my issues? read Dr. Harleys chapters about conflict, withdrawal and intimacy. Stop worrying about her. Figure out what you want, not how she is going to react to it. That plenty hard enough.
Same here. I think that a lot of women WANT to be WANTED. But that is as far as they need it to go. Acting upon desire is NOT what they want. My wife told me once that what she wants from me is to just be there, just be in the room. Going beyond that, to things that actually get in her personal space makes her UNCOMFORTABLE. Kissing, cuddling, petting, sex. They all make her uncomfortable. She just wants me present, just at the other end of the couch. She wants me to want her, just from afar.
Poster: Cobra Subject: Re: Still Alive III: Lunchtime for Zombies
Choc, Chrome,
Why don't you just tell her? Then ask her why that is and what kind of message she is trying to send you? If you don't confront her on it, then don't complain about it.
I have, many, many times. She denies she's doing it, and -- like I said -- may not even realize it.
Tell me one more thing… what is it in your wife’s past that makes her this way? I have asked several times but you have not answered. What went on in her FOO? Can I find it in an old thread somewhere?
I don't know where the old thread is anymore. Basically, her mother and father married young, supposedly because her mom was pregnant with her. They had one more kid (a sister). Got divorced when W was 11. She and sis went to live with her dad, who apparently pulled some sort of power play to get them (I won't pay a dime of child support, you can't afford them, so let me have them) Her dad is very controlling, and was emotionally abusive ("How could you be so stupid?!" was something she says she heard often while growing up) Her mom is very non-confrontational. She and her sister moved back to where her mom lived after about 2-3 years with Dad, but mom was busy getting a nursing degree, so they lived with her maternal grandparents. Lots of abandonment issues, of course, since mom was too busy to take care of them, and, even after the nursing degree, didn't do a very good job of it.
W has a good relationship for the most part with her mom, but hasn't spoken to her dad in about two years, and that's just fine with her, as she has tried many times to re-connect with him, and he ends up "breaking my heart." Her dad remarried shortly after divorcing her mom, had a daughter with second wife, and showers that daughter with gifts, money, etc. W and her sister (sister still has relationship with her dad) have been told by him that they just don't feel like a part of his family to him.
I've sometimes thought that she treats me so badly to replay her childhood, with me playing her part, and her playing her Dad's part. Is it to get back at male-dom? Is it in hopes that I'll stand up to her? Is it in hopes that I'll leave her?
I dunno. I'm just getting the facts out.
Last night was another fun, friendly, happy night. Wish I'd read blackfoot's post before we went to bed. I think it's a good idea.
Poster: cemar2 Subject: Re: Still Alive III: Lunchtime for Zombies
OG_Lou:
Same here. I think that a lot of women WANT to be WANTED. But that is as far as they need it to go. Acting upon desire is NOT what they want. My wife told me once that what she wants from me is to just be there, just be in the room. Going beyond that, to things that actually get in her personal space makes her UNCOMFORTABLE. Kissing, cuddling, petting, sex. They all make her uncomfortable. She just wants me present, just at the other end of the couch. She wants me to want her, just from afar.
CeMar, this reminded me of a little tiny picture my wife gave me some years ago, which sits here on my desk at work. It's a back-shot of Winnie-the-Pooh and Piglet (the classic, old-fashioned ones, not the new, Disney ones), walking into the setting sun, and it says:
"Pooh?" whispered Piglet. "Yes, Piglet? said Pooh. "Oh, nothing," said Piglet. "I just wanted to be sure of you."
Sounds to me like she has the who wants to want syndrome. People that grow up under dysfunctional conditions like she did essentially create lots of barriers to protect themselves. Essentially everyone that SHOULD have been important to her caused her great pain. Her reaction is to do what is necessary to prevent this pain, so she makes herself hardened. She does NOT need others, her masculine polarity is way to high, and her femminists beliefs tell her that she can do it on her own. She can no longer trust anyone, and she sees you as untrustworthy because she believes that you will also hurt her.
I see the same thing in my own wife. Now if I just knew how to SOLVE this problem.
Hey, what is happening in your marriage counselling? I would love to hear about it. Is it worth it? Any real success?
Your wife has HUGE trust issues with men, especially men she loves. No daughter can help loving her father and the fact that her father fought so hard for her, dumped his wife and took off with the kids, that in a child's eye is being ELEVATED to the level of alternative wife. HUGE HUGE enmeshment issues with her dad, only to be dumped again. This, very likely, is why she couldn't cope with motherhood proper after the initial brush with it (she had a miscarriage right?) she dis-identifies (is that a word) with her weak mother and identifies with her strong father. The amount you do for DD5 and around the house shows how she has you cast in the role of mum while she plays dad.
How do I know all this? Because I am the same. But fortunately for me my Dad did not let me down quite as badly as this and he is still around and we have a good R. So I have the same syndrome but in a weaker form.
The fact that you got together with her rather than with someone healthier means you have issues of your own. Do you know what these are?
She really really does want to be able to trust you, she just can't. She needs you to be completely strong, completely single minded, completely bullet-proof.
Saying IWTMLWYOAW in the way that you did, calm and strong, was a line in the sand. She wants to see what else you will do to show that you are that calm strong man. And yes she does push and kick you away to check how horrible she has to be before you will leave.
The fact that a week has passed since you first said you want to ML once a week means nothing. This does not have to be the first week that it happens. Just keep saying it. And like BF suggested go ahead and initiate. In fact if you are successful I would suggest initiating again 6 days later. It doesn't have to be the same day every week does it? Also if you are not successful, go ahead and try again the next day, because if you didn't do it then it doesn't count does it?
Cemar: My wife told me once that what she wants from me is to just be there, just be in the room. Going beyond that, to things that actually get in her personal space makes her UNCOMFORTABLE. This sounds exactly like my H. He has said something similiar, although in his case it is talking (mental intimacy) rather than physical intimacy that makes him uncomfortable. He says things like "I like to just be". I can keep him in the room with me for as long as I like just sitting together, but as soon as I start a conversation he will find a reason to leave.
It is as if mrs Cemar and Ms HD have been in a car accident and they never want to be in a car again. Cars cannot be trusted as a mode of transport. But everyone has a car so it is OK to own one, in fact it is a status symbol and best get a good one. Just leave in the garage though.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
its probably too late for tonight, but expect that she is going to reject you. How you respond is the key. Even if you do it 'right' she is still not likely to go along with it... yet.
immediate gratification is not the point of the action.
The point is for uou to deal with her rejection and let her think about her rejection. Right now you have taught Mrs.HD to use sex as a carrot. Thats why she brings up 'I was ..blahblahblah...but you..blahblahblah.' Sex is not a carrot.
Thanks for the background on your W. I thought there was something like that in her past. Like Haphazard says, there are some major loss issues going on. I recall you two go to your own counselors now. What was it about the joint counseling that caused you to reach an impasse? Basically finger pointing that you are the source of her problems, not her FOO? That would make sense. She is SOOO like my wife.
This FOO stuff may not be worth dragging up for some people, but for her it is the 800 pound gorilla. I do not see how it can be avoided. What I see is a woman so hurt but so angry with her parents. It sounds like she is angriest with her father for obvious reasons, and what she really wants is for her dad to hold her again. That her dad continues to favor her sibling and ignore her is constantly rubbing more salt in the wound.
She is shut down to the pain, hates men for what has happened to her, but is caught in a catch 22 because what she really wants is validation and acceptance from men, what she believes to be the source of her pain in the first place. So her emotions secretly pull her toward men but her intellect repels her from them. That is a damn hard way to live a life.
Understand this one point very clearly Hairdog. Her father is a tough, domineering, masculine man. That is the model she learned as a child and that is what she is comfortable with. What she wants is this type of man, but in a caring, empathic version, what she wishes her dad would be. What she is NOT comfortable with is a compliant, supplicating man. As a child I doubt she ever knew such a creature existed. She has learned to respect raw power, that is what her dad showed her. So your shows of strength are on the correct path.
Do not fear her reaction to your strength. She has a Pavlovian response to strength in men and she automatically expects to be heartbroken. She needs to re-associate strength in men with security and protection. That is your core task and it will not be easy but I think you are more than up to the task.
The good part is that she will NOT leave you and she is tough as nails so you do not need to worry whether she can handle tough love. She can. But I believe it is critical that your show really strong signs of strength TOGETHER with lots of empathy and compassion. That post I made to you last night, recounting the incident with my W in counseling, is a good example of just what I am talking about. Standing up to her, but not against her, rather fighting FOR her in a strong way for the explicit purpose of protecting her is what she wants to hear, IMO.
That is the one very select language that my wife will hear. Almost everything else she will block out. My W has spent her whole life, as your wife has, justifying why she needs to protect herself from the world. From her past experience, it is hard not to agree with her. She is doing what she had to do to survive, plain and simple. Nevertheless, she is fully aware of the false defenses she has created and she would really like to be free of them. Every now and then you will get a glimpse of this. Her comment to you in the hospital that she knew she had not been a good wife is the perfect example of this. It was a temporary crack in her shield and you could see into her soul. I believe these types of cracks are the truest representation of what a person really is. They should never be ignored.
I believe you could still follow up on that comment and make great headway with it. She may be able to “out-logical” you right now, but that is only because you do not understand her. Once you see the house of cards she has built, it is almost child’s play to dismantle her defenses and replace them with compassion. Just remember that every thing she says is a deflection to protect herself from her fears. So focus your comments on soothing those fears of abandonment as you push one deflection after another to the side. Your strength must be in deflecting her deflections with compassion for the wound that becomes exposed that piece of her armor is removed.
The other aspect of her FOO I want to mention concerns her mother. I believe she empathizes with her mother as the victim of your father. Part of why she is a lawyer representing women is likely because she is replaying her need to protect her mother from her father. But at the same time, her mother did not protect her as she should have. Her mother was weak and I think she hates that weakness in women because it causes them to be subjugated to men. Since your wife is a fighter by nature, she has vowed not to ever let a man do that to her. So she became a lawyer. Makes sense to me.
But again, what is it that she really wants? I am betting she wishes her mother had been strong enough to protect her from her dad. As much as she misses the love of her father, I think she misses the love of her mother even more. But she was so hurt and became so angry, I am thinking she has cut off being vulnerable to this most feminine of emotions. In so doing, she has cut of that part of herself which is feminine and vulnerable. It is a conditioned response.
I personally think you will not make the progress you need as long as you two see separate counselors. You need to come back together at some point. You also need to keep hammering away at Mrs HD. Water torture is fine, but I think it is also important to show some more assertiveness from you, especially to reprogram her conditioning.
I know I'm sort of going off topic here but the thing that you mentioned recently that gave me a little insight into MsHD is that she once suggested that you just go see a prostitute. I see this as a little chink in her feminist armor. Not very much in the line of the sisterhood to pawn off the bad animalistic male urges on another woman who is in a weaker position than you. I think if she ever says anything like this again it would offer you a real opportunity to get in touch with her more vulnerable side.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
