Sex Drive and Life Style

[Cobra]

Mojo,

I feel like this is what I've mostly been trying to do for the last 19 years and it hasn't worked. It's like I've been force-feeding him Dr. Laura's Big 3 (feed, f*ck, admire) in an effort to get the "work his heart out for you" on the other end and I've only ended up making myself exhausted.

How is this any different from the men here who have been putting up with their W’s crap for years and are now told to do it even longer, except to do it in a different and more effective way? Hairdog is still putting up with his W, but now he is doing it from a more alpha perspective, so there is a chance things could change.

Just because you think you were a good “mother” to your H doesn’t mean who were. You might have been playing mother, but I think you were an enabling mother. After years of this type of conditioning, it will be hard for him to see the difference. The good thing is that he is a rational adult, he seems willing to discuss these things with you, and open minded enough to see your point. His problem does not seem to be with recognition of his faults (the same goes with you), but in having the strength to push forward rather than slip back into old patterns.

In one of my more dysfunctionally HD moments many years ago, I gave my H a BJ in order to relax him for a job interview.

I can see that would relax him, but I don’t see how it would help him get over his anxiety or lack of confidence. Perhaps seeking advice from a recruiter on how to present yourself in interviews, how to dress, how to stand, shake hands, etc., would have been more valuable and a better confidence booster.

I guess I've come to the conclusion that if a woman goes into overdrive on following the Dr. Laura type rules than it works out to be the same as a man being supplicating.

Don’t get me wrong, your H is in dire need to growing up and becoming a man. Its like he is stuck in adolescence. Dieda would help him a lot. I also think he needs to get serious about his career, even if it means selling the house and moving to another part of the country. As a side note, it seems to me that blue collar or staff level people tend to be very stationary in terms of where they live. White collar, managerial or executive level people tend to move a lot and sometimes move often. If there is no work where they live, they find a job anywhere in the country and move. Maybe you and your H should open the door to all possibilities regarding his career. Staying close to old friends and families may not be helping your marriage, KWIM?

OTOH, I don't think that I should take BFs advice and act LD just to get what I want (especially since sex is part of what I want.-LOL).

No, I wouldn’t do that either, but I do believe your HD state may change with your relationship.

Though maybe the point both of you are trying to make is that I should be more Mom with the stick than Mom with the carrot.

I think that if he can see you wielding the stick out of love for him, he will not take it badly. Perhaps the problem with you holding the stick is that you really don’t want to, and as soon as you can, you drop it and go into your “rescue me” mode, before he has even had a chance to stabilize himself. That can feel like pressure to him, in the same way women complain that their H is waiting for sex, watching and judging them. It turns the women off, so I would think it could turn off your H as well.

Definitely not an appealing or natural role for me.

I would hope you wouldn’t have to do this forever. In fact, part of you swinging that stick should be that there will be a time when you expect him to stand up like a man and support you.

[cemar2]

MJontheMend:

I doubt that Dr. Laura's advice would ever work with a LD man. LD men have behaviors very similar to LD women.

[MJontheMend]

Just because you think you were a good “mother” to your H doesn’t mean who were. You might have been playing mother, but I think you were an enabling mother.

I absolutely agree. That is what I was trying to say I thought that I was being a good wife but I was being a bad wife because I was weak. The problem with trying to be the "strong mother" is that it's too easy to come off as Alpha in that role because you have to demand respect which works with children but not with grown men with whom you want to have sex. BF is absolutely right in that regard. Although he is wrong to believe that simply changing my perspective about my H will work. There is just no way that I can see my H as a strong male when he behaves in a manner that is irresponsible to the extent that it makes me worry about the welfare of my children. Like Chris Rock says "If the kid doesn't know how to read, that's the Momma's fault. If the kid doesn't know how to read because there isn't any electricity to read by, that's the Daddy's fault.". See, I told you I wasn't a feminist.-LOL.

Anyway, I actually am pretty much doing what you recommend. For instance, my H constantly complains about a few health problems that he has interfering with his work so I suggested to him that he make it a priority to follow through with health care providers on these matters rather than procrastinating and I offered to make the appointments. So I'm trying to be sort of the pro-active "Mom" who in response to "I'm too tired to do my homework." says "Then go take a nap right now and I'll wake you up in an hour and then you will do your homework.". My nice "Mom" side even remembers to supply some cookies and milk.-LOL.

I can see that would relax him, but I don’t see how it would help him get over his anxiety or lack of confidence. Perhaps seeking advice from a recruiter on how to present yourself in interviews, how to dress, how to stand, shake hands, etc., would have been more valuable and a better confidence booster.

I also discussed with my H that maybe he should start seeing a life coach or a job coach. I think he found the idea embarrassing but appealing at the same time.

As a side note, it seems to me that blue collar or staff level people tend to be very stationary in terms of where they live. White collar, managerial or executive level people tend to move a lot and sometimes move often. If there is no work where they live, they find a job anywhere in the country and move. Maybe you and your H should open the door to all possibilities regarding his career. Staying close to old friends and families may not be helping your marriage, KWIM?

Well, my business brings in over 40% of our income so there are some difficulties. I can move my business but not just anywhere. I would even be willing to do something new if there was an opportunity that really excited him somewhere I couldn't move my business. If he said "Woman, I hear there's land for the taking. Let's go out west!", I would go, though my motivation would probably be at least as much Type 7 greed for new experiences as "follow your man" instinct. However, realistically, we do have two children to put through college so our options are somewhat limited. Also, I should note that although my H does have a degree in education his current work is in a high demand blue collar field so he can get work virtually anywhere if he doesn't change careers.

Perhaps the problem with you holding the stick is that you really don’t want to, and as soon as you can, you drop it and go into your “rescue me” mode, before he has even had a chance to stabilize himself.

No, my problem is that I go into "Momma Bear" mode. I am only willing to spend so much time teaching a cub to fish before I abandon him to his own devices. I value independence too much to not try to allow other's to develop it, also I'm lazy. With my own children this generally works well -not so much with my H. He hates the lack of attention so he goes into a dysfunctional mode which puts me into the "rescue me" mode. Note: his real mother is a total Type 2 rescuer martyr type.

I would hope you wouldn’t have to do this forever. In fact, part of you swinging that stick should be that there will be a time when you expect him to stand up like a man and support you.

I'm almost tempted to just drop on purpose in the hopes that he'll reflexively catch me but I can't do it as long as I have to be a responsible adult for my children.

[MJontheMend]

I doubt that Dr. Laura's advice would ever work with a LD man. LD men have behaviors very similar to LD women.

Well, if you were trapped on a desert island with me you might end up being the LD man. Would you want me to not follow Dr.Laura's advice at that point?

[Cobra]

Mojo,

There is just no way that I can see my H as a strong male when he behaves in a manner that is irresponsible to the extent that it makes me worry about the welfare of my children.

Agreed, but can you at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he has the potential within him?

So I'm trying to be sort of the pro-active "Mom" who in response to "I'm too tired to do my homework." says "Then go take a nap right now and I'll wake you up in an hour and then you will do your homework.". My nice "Mom" side even remembers to supply some cookies and milk.-LOL.

This isn’t crossing over into the enabling mode, is it? It seems to be a very fine line you have to walk. It would drive me crazy too. Would it be better to show some indignation that he is wasting his skills and abilities and therefore not sharing with you his full potential, as Dieda proposes? Just wondering here…

I also discussed with my H that maybe he should start seeing a life coach or a job coach. I think he found the idea embarrassing but appealing at the same time.

Hmmm… that does sound a little like he is comforted and his ego boosted by knowing that you expect him to succeed, so he likes you pushing him, but at the same time he is embarrassed because you have to push him and other men don’t need pushing. Maybe the right balance of tough love is needed?

Also, I should note that although my H does have a degree in education his current work is in a high demand blue collar field so he can get work virtually anywhere if he doesn't change careers.

OK, I’m confused. If this is true, why is he putting up with this demeaning boss at work? Why does he just go out and grab some of this easily available work and set some of his own terms? If he is in demand, why is work even an issue? It should actually be a source of pride for him if he can be heavily recruited. I’m missing something here.

No, my problem is that I go into "Momma Bear" mode. I am only willing to spend so much time teaching a cub to fish before I abandon him to his own devices. I value independence too much to not try to allow other's to develop it, also I'm lazy.

OK Mojo, now just what do you mean by independence? One one hand I see you as being quite enmeshed with your H and dependent on him. When he gives you too much independence, it triggers anxiety in you. How can you claim to be so independent when you are so dependent on another to make you feel loved and accepted? Think this through a little because it makes no sense to me at all.

Note: his real mother is a total Type 2 rescuer martyr type.

OK, your baiting me with this FOO comment… Oh wait, I asked about it first. OK, does he understand the ramifications of this? I’m sure you do.

I'm almost tempted to just drop on purpose in the hopes that he'll reflexively catch me but I can't do it as long as I have to be a responsible adult for my children.

I agree.

[MJontheMend]

I want to reply to your last set of responses but first I feel like I need to come clean regarding your theory that I started having sex young because I wanted affection or acceptance. I definitely think that I do want affection and acceptance from my H but I just do not believe that is why I started having sex at 15.

By the time I was 13 I was 5'9", 130 lbs. and wore a C cup. Any time I went to the beach grown men hit on me. I learned to MB when I was 12 or 13 by reading a book on female sexuality that my Mom left around the house and did it regularly about 2 or 3x a week. My favorite song to MB to was "Until the Night" on the Billy Joel's "52nd Street" which I ordered from the Columbia Record Club along with Andy Gibb's "Shadow Dancing", another favorite. One of my favorite fantasies involved a boy I had a crush on named Mike after he grew up and became a fireman. The theme wasn't really affection or acceptance more like "uniform fetish". Around the same time I read quite a few straight-out pornagraphic novels (mostly of the naughty schoolgirl or man with multiple women variety) that a Great-Uncle had stored with some other books at our house. I also read a ton of the standard blouse-ripping sexual romance novels available at the local drugstore. By the time I was 15 I was more than ready to lose my virginity. When I was 14 I had a boyfriend with whom I did pretty much everything but. I was "in love" with him. After we broke up I saw the movie "Little Darlings" and decided to go for it. I purposefully seduced the 23 year old gorgeous ski bum brother of one of my friends who was living with his parents in the off season. We "did it" in a room with cowboy wallpaper and continued to "do it" mostly in the backyard on a blanket, until he discovered that I was 15 and dropped me like a hot potato. My sexuality was a weird mix of ignorant and sophisticated. For instance, on one occasion I thought it was a good idea to borrow a jar of jelly from the people for whom I was babysitting and liberally apply it to myself before sex. I was jealous of the older girl that he started dating later that summer but I wasn't really heartbroken.

So I guess I'm thinking that unless it was something dysfunctional about my FOO that started me MB at 13 there wasn't really anything FOO related that caused me to start having sex at 15. I'm sorry to disappoint, I kind of like the idea of me as the sad little girl looking for affection. Gives me a nice buzz of self-pity.-LOL.

*****************************************************************

Agreed, but can you at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he has the potential within him?

Absolutely. I also feel like I would be doing him a disservice if I suggested that he was proud of his behavior.

Would it be better to show some indignation that he is wasting his skills and abilities and therefore not sharing with you his full potential, as Dieda proposes? Just wondering here…

That might be a good idea. At least I haven't tried anything like that before so it definitely has possibilities.

OK, I’m confused. If this is true, why is he putting up with this demeaning boss at work? Why does he just go out and grab some of this easily available work and set some of his own terms? If he is in demand, why is work even an issue? It should actually be a source of pride for him if he can be heavily recruited. I’m missing something here.

The only thing you are missing is just how disspirited he is. He thinks that his current job s*cks but he thinks another one in the same field would s*ck just as bad. Being recruited is not a source of pride for him because he doesn't like what he's doing.

OK Mojo, now just what do you mean by independence?

Well, for instance I hate it when my H tells me that I shouldn't do things for my business because they would inconvenience him. I can't go to an evening sale without leaving dinner in a crockpot because he can't/won't cook at all. Personally what I mean by valuing independence is that I like working for myself and I like knowing how to do things for myself, like how to make homemade pickles or how to patch plaster. I like the idea of being financially independent so I value thrift. Also I value independent thinking, despise censorship and narrow-mindedness. John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty" made me cry when I read it. This is kind of the spirit that I was feeling in my white dress anecdote. I like feeling free to do what I want to do including skipping down the street barefoot in a little white dress after being f*cked to the music of Bob Dylan by a nice Jewish boy with a head full of curls.

How do you explain the intersection of this with my obvious marital fusion? I wish I knew.

OK, does he understand the ramifications of this?

Yes, but he says things like "Is it any wonder I am so f*cked up?".

[Cobra]

Mojo,

How do you explain the intersection of this with my obvious marital fusion? I wish I knew.

I wasn’t aware until today that your H’s mother was a rescuer. Don’t you think all his behavior is just follow through of that? Mom, get me a better job, with someone I like… Mom, cook dinner for me before you leave…. Mom, tell me I’m great and smart and successful and how muuuuuch you love me.

Well, for instance I hate it when my H tells me that I shouldn't do things for my business because they would inconvenience him.

Yep, that one too…

Personally what I mean by valuing independence is that I like working for myself and I like knowing how to do things for myself, like how to make homemade pickles or how to patch plaster. I like the idea of being financially independent so I value thrift.

Uhhh Mom, you’re not paying attention to me when you’re doing that stuff…

Yes, but he says things like "Is it any wonder I am so f*cked up?"

So what do you say when he says this? It sounds like a little boy being cute with his mom when he got caught at something, and trying to “endear” his way out of it, KWIM? So I am wondering if you find it cute too. If so, do you think that is enabling him? Maybe you could show a little indignation that he isn’t playing the leader role and you really don’t find that amusing in the least.

Are you seeing the picture I am, that he is a male version of the Jewish American Princess and is basically spoiled rotten? If he were my son, I’d be kicking his ass to get out and learn to fight in the business world, or whatever interests him, as long as he goes after it with some gusto.

Your problem is that he has been doing this all his life, and getting away with it to boot. Old habits are going to be hard to change. But his excuse for not finding another job sounds pretty lame. Maybe he is a little scared to go out and find something new (maybe along the lines of wanting mommy to be there to help him through it). Do you think he has any concerns about competition from younger workers? Is his job really that bad or is it more a function of the people he works with? Sometimes a job can just be a job, but it’s the people you work with that make all the difference. Which really seems like a good reason to leave if he hates his boss.

As for your youth, I do not think there is anything dysfunctional per se in what you describe growing up, except that I think you were awfully young and naïve to be experiencing sex. I understand your body “pulling” you in directions before your time, but I do think it had a powerful effect on you. To have grown men hitting on you at that age, and to be surround with constant overtones of sex had to have a dysfunctional effect on you. If you said all this started around the age of 18, I wouldn’t give it a thought, but I think you were waaaaay to young to be experiencing all that. I don’t know how a girl of that age knows enough to properly keep those sexual advances in perspective. Just my POV.

Lil, you want to jump in here? You probably know a lot more about this than I.

[MJontheMend]

Are you seeing the picture I am, that he is a male version of the Jewish American Princess and is basically spoiled rotten?

Well, my Mom calls him the "pampered prince" but my Mom is pretty b*tchy. At a holiday dinner my MIL started talking about how cute and talented my H was when he played the Ron Howard role in a big production of The Music Man when he was a kid. My Mom practically started rolling her eyes at the other end of the table. My kids who are sharp cookies started laughing to themselves. My MIL took my H shopping for pants for his birthday when he was in his 30s. I had to point out to him how odd that was. Recently she picked up my S18 who is her pet to take him out to lunch. She told him to brush his hair (which he wears quite long) before they left. My son told her that he liked his hair the way it was and I have to admit that I was pleased.

So what do you say when he says this? It sounds like a little boy being cute with his mom when he got caught at something, and trying to “endear” his way out of it, KWIM? So I am wondering if you find it cute too. If so, do you think that is enabling him? Maybe you could show a little indignation that he isn’t playing the leader role and you really don’t find that amusing in the least.

Dead on. Guilty as charged. My H grew up between two sisters and he learned early how to entertain the ladies. He can play that "endear" his way out of it role to a tee. He is a natural mime and ham. Here is how bad my MIL is. She told me that when my H and his sister who is just a year older than him were little they had coat hooks on the wall. When they would come inside his sister would hang up her coat but my H would moan and pretend that he couldn't reach the hook so that his sister would hang his coat up for him. My MIL thought that this story was cute and funny!!!

Your problem is that he has been doing this all his life, and getting away with it to boot. Old habits are going to be hard to change. But his excuse for not finding another job sounds pretty lame. Maybe he is a little scared to go out and find something new (maybe along the lines of wanting mommy to be there to help him through it). Do you think he has any concerns about competition from younger workers? Is his job really that bad or is it more a function of the people he works with? Sometimes a job can just be a job, but it’s the people you work with that make all the difference. Which really seems like a good reason to leave if he hates his boss.

It's less that he hates his boss and more like he gets too fused with his bosses. He cares too much what they think of him. Same with his co-workers. Back in my more dysfunctional days this used to make me sort of jealous because he could obsess endlessly about what these other people thought about him or how they treated him but simultaneously act like he didn't give a damn about my opinion or how he treated me.

As for your youth, I do not think there is anything dysfunctional per se in what you describe growing up, except that I think you were awfully young and naïve to be experiencing sex. I understand your body “pulling” you in directions before your time, but I do think it had a powerful effect on you. To have grown men hitting on you at that age, and to be surround with constant overtones of sex had to have a dysfunctional effect on you. If you said all this started around the age of 18, I wouldn’t give it a thought, but I think you were waaaaay to young to be experiencing all that. I don’t know how a girl of that age knows enough to properly keep those sexual advances in perspective. Just my POV.

I know what you're saying and there is some truth there. Partly it was just "gifted child" syndrome (brain too big including the sexual info part for my emotional britches) mixed with an early blooming body. One incident that makes my sister and I laugh every time we recall it is that we were at the beach one day and some guys came up to us and one said "Would you ladies like a beer?" and my sister said quite forcefully "We aren't ladies!".

[Lillieperl]

Mojo wrote

I can't go to an evening sale without leaving dinner in a crockpot because he can't/won't cook at all.

You just meant this as a hypothetical example, right? Surely you don't mean this literally... because this is total utter complete bullsh!t. So what if he can't/won't cook. He can be hungry. He can make a PBJ, for Pete's sake.


Re Mojo's sexual precocity: I was very sexual from a very young age, too. I've been thinking about that recently. I obsessed about sex from the time I found out (from the encyclopedia at age 11) what it was. I wasn't obsessed with the validation or affirmation of it. I was obsessed with the buzzy feelings and mystery of it. I'm a double Scorpio. BUT as an only girl who moved around a lot, I didn't have any social life, AND this was before the pill and I was DEATHLY afraid of pregnancy. I KNEW my parents would put me out on the street if I became pregnant. There was no doubt in my mind. I didn't really "sleep around" until after I was divorced at the age of 25. Although I did have an affair when I was married. It's only recently with my bf and with all the reading I've been doing and soul searching that I feel whole without the lack of sex in my life affecting me adversely. Interesting. ALL my life sex has been THE single most validating thing I have been seeking. Everything else in my life could be fantastic, and if I wasn't having sex regularly, I felt like a failure. That's just not true anymore.

[MJontheMend]

You just meant this as a hypothetical example, right? Surely you don't mean this literally... because this is total utter complete bullsh!t. So what if he can't/won't cook. He can be hungry. He can make a PBJ, for Pete's sake.

Yes I do mean it literally. If I don't leave him a meal or at least arrange for the kids to get take out he will say something like "The only way I can deal with my s*cky job is knowing that at least there will be a hot meal at home.". Yet, I am expected to earn a full time living and nobody ever makes a meal for me. Also I do all the housework except for my H's laundry (because I don't fold right) and a few kid chores (My D works for my business so I keep her chore load fairly light and my S is half gone from home.). Just recently I managed to get my H to do the yardwork and pay the bills but I was doing those too previously. Does anybody understand why I think it is highly likely that I will become a WAW once the kids are gone? No sex and an unfair share of work is a pretty deadly combo. It is even worse than that because if I try to work more my H complains about my absence and if I work less he complains about money. PLUS in order to get laid I have to spend X hours a week working out at the gym and keeping myself attractive and not eating cookies. PLUS I have to spend "quality" time with my H listening to him complain about his job. I actually look forward to the occasional night that he travels for work because then I can just relax. He is WAAAAAY too high maintenance. I actually sometimes think "I can't afford to be married to this man anymore" because I would be better able to take care of myself financially on my own.