New here - W unwilling to work on it

[hiscott]

30andLost, it sounds like you have thought through this and are not jumping into anything prematurely. I agree with the other posts that we all need to stay patient.

[30andLost]

Hello all,

It's been awhile since I've posted but am feeling like today is a good time since I'm having some of the lonely insecure feelings of my last lengthy post. But I just re-read it to be sure not to repeat myself and I'm already feeling better. Same feelings today, and I need to deal with them the same way. I hope this site doesn't delete my posts after awhile. I wonder if there's and easy way to download and entire thread?

First, the update(s):
Since I last posted, my W and I have spent some good times together. Our first time together since my leaving and destroying her was on Feb 15, which I've already posted about. Since then, we had our first "date" if I can call it that, for our anniversary on Feb 24. It started out kind of rough for both of us. A lot of anxiety and anger in the air, but no direct attacks from either of us towards each other. The night got better though and it seemed to finish ok. We had some good conversation and then when dinner was done I left because she had to do some studying, so I respected that.

I then kind of pissed her off the Thursday because I had told her that if she wanted to she could tan afterwork on Thursdays and I would just stay with the kids while she went since I pick them up from school on Thursdays anyways. So, the first Thursday this was to happen she texted me when she got to the tanning place and said that she'd be home in 20 min. I felt a little taken for granted because I would have appreciated her letting me know in the morning that she planned on tanning that night. Her interpretation of our agreement was that she would go every Thursday. So, I believe I was a little oversensitive, but we really just had a communication error. I apologized the next day for the miscommunication, after I gave her space to calm down. I didn't, however, recant my feelings of being taken for granted. Kind of took a small stand for myself through all of this.

So, she got over her pissed-off-ness and we went this Sunday (Mar 4) on a half-day trip (10.5hrs) to Tahoe from Sacramento to our favorite tattoo artist to get new tattoos. She got her cover-up of my name fixed and added to, and I got a cross with light rays above my demon to symbolize God in my life delivering me from the evil of my past self. The whole day went REALLY well. Not for our M, but for our relationship as friends. I am MOST proud of myself for not letting the old me into our time together at all. She shared what shes been doing in her life with her free time and I listened and even though my insecurities came into my head, they did not come out of my mouth! Plus, they were only there for a second! They used to shut me down for days but I was able to process them within a few seconds and then resume talking to her on a friend level and they went away completely! You would think that I'd be more happy that my W was able to spend time with me in hopes that our M would work out soon. But that just isn't the case this time. I am so proud of myself that the work I've been doing in SLAA and with my therapist is paying off in permanent changes within me. I don't have to be controlling and insecure to enjoy time with someone. It really feels great. At the end of the night when she left for work SHE even initiated a hug! THAT is huge for her, since two weeks ago she said the hug thing was too much for her.

So, we have really been bonding so-to-speak about our working out. We are both working out individually and we talk about our progress and the workouts we do and the changes in our bodies. She mentioned that she really missed my iPod because when she works out at home and the kids have a movie on she can't listen to her music. Additionally, I have been using a Men's Health workout guide and talking to her about it and she expressed that she wished she had a women's version of that to help her out. So yesterday Mar 5, I decided to buy her a womens workout book and an iPod. Now, let me be perfectly clear, my motives were PURE! I asked and asked myself why I wanted to buy these things for her and the answer was simply because I love her and wanted to make her smile, if only for a moment. I was not in anyway trying to "buy" her love or looking to get anything in return, I just wanted to make her happy. Something the old me had seldom if ever done, it was always to get something that I wanted. I also am still crystal clear that she is not ready to work on us, and the gifts were in no way meant to pursuade her towards us. Again, just to get her something that would make her happy.

So, I explained this to her before I gave her the gifts because I wanted to be sure that she didn't think into my motives for things that the old me would be thinking. I also explained that I know that no amount of money would ever make up for what I've done to her and that I had no expectations of anything in return, I simply loved her and wanted to make her happy. She LOVED the gifts, and gave me HUG # 2!

Which leads me to today. I was feeling great in the morning. I saw W when I went over to pick up the kids. Good friend talk, and off to work she went. Some good texting about the Keith Urban song Stupid Boy. I just texted her and said I hope the last line won't be true for her, which is "She's never coming back to me." She didn't respond, which is neither good, nor bad either. So I'm ok with it. But then around 9:30 I started to fall off my good mood into a little hopelessness and loneliness and started feeling the need to call her, especially about us.

But, I stopped myself, MUCH quicker than I have in the past, and all by myself. I tried to call my SLAA sponsor and couldn't reach him. I immediately recognized what I had posted earlier, that these were my feelings and I needed to deal with them and they were not my W responsibility to make me feel whole or to make my loneliness go away. I then came here to journal, found my old post, and now I'm doing much better.

So, that's all for now. Keep me and my M in your prayers and hope for the best. We don't have our next "date" scheduled next but I'm going to ask her about it tonight. Just leaving it up to her when she wants to spend more time together.

Love this place,
B

[OldFool]

Hey 30andLost:

I haven't read your thread...just your first post. Wow! As they say, it wasn't that he'd shot himself in the foot so much as it was how fast he reloaded and fired again.

I saw your post elsewhere looking for me and didn't want to hijack someone else's thread. Did you have a specific question for me? If so, I'll answer as best I can. Let me know here or you can pop over to my thread "The fat lady is warming up...." over in the "Divorced But Not Done" forum.

My best to you.

[30andLost]

I didn't have a specific question right now, but...

Since I'm dealing with love addiction, fear of abandonment, & co-dependence, my core issue (there are others) is control. Controlling my W through either manipulation, straight insults and put downs, whatever I could do to make her more dependent on me so that I could be reassured that I wasn't losing her or going to lose her, to the point where I suffocated her and denied her of knowing herself.

I've done a lot of work in therapy to remove my fear of abandonment and insecurities, and a lot of work in SLAA to remove my control issues. I am on the right path, but I need support from wise people that can help me to become the person that I want to be. You, I belive, are one of those wise people that can help me and guide me when my control issues and insecurities start to creep back in. What I was hoping for was to be able to get your phone number so that when I'm dealing with things that flare up and I need immediate support, you would be another resource for me to call to straighten me out and keep me on the straight and narrow.

That's all. I read all of your posts and you clearly have the knowledge that would be invaluable to me.

Thanks for your consideration,
B

[Rosy_Times]

Hey B, it sounds like you are definately working on yourself. Keep it up! You know you can call me or email me if you need to also.

[OldFool]

Well, I'd be the first to say I don't have all the answers. But I'll lend a hand if I can help you. My schedule is such that I'm often unavailable at regular times (which is why you'll see many of my posts in the wee hours of the morning) so that makes phone conversations impractical. But I prefer posting here for another reason...so that folks here can learn and benefit from the experiences of others such as yourself.

Conversations that occur outside this community deny its current (and future) members that opportunity. You have been the beneficiary of the exchanges that have happened in these forums so I hope you'll understand why I prefer not to go "off-line".

I have added your thread to my watch list and I'll jump in if I think I have something useful to say. Of course, you can always post something addressed directly to me and I'll respond. I usually try to check the forums several times a week. However, I try to give specific responses and often spend an hour or so on a thread as I craft a response...so obviously I don't respond to every post on every thread.

They say that the first step to solving your problem is recognizing you have one. The fact that you know you have them and what they are is such a huge step forward for you. You're doing the hard work and I think any time someone is willing to do that, there is hope. You have done grave damage to your M and the R with your W, but few things are irreversible so I believe you have reason for some hope.

[30andLost]

Hello all,

I just wanted to check in and give those of you that have been helping me an update.

Things are going REALLY well. I have spent time with W every day since Mar. 13 (I think, probably longer). We are operating on the friend level and a little past that with some cuddling, back rubs, and hugs, and the like. No sex or kissing (just a few pecks). I am definitely giving her the affection and conversation that she needs to feel safe and comfortable with me (basic female needs from 'His Needs Her Needs'. I ask for kisses, and joke about the sex, but respect her 'no' response and leave it at the one request (per day ). Times have been good as I've said. We talk about normal topics and really enjoy each other's company. Every once in awhile R talk comes up (more on that later), but it is never confrontational and I always validate her feelings and reiterate my acceptance of my responsibility in all of this, and apologize for my actions.

Specific situations:

Friday, Mar 16: It was my weekend to be with the kids while she usually goes to her friends to stay and go out at night. I had previously told her that she would never come to the house to hang out if it was her weekend away. Well, she was home when I got there and stayed there until her friend got off of work (11pm). While she was there we hung out and watched a movie together and then she left a little before 11pm. This part kind of screwed me up a bit. I didn't have any insecurities or control issues over her going out with her friends to have a good time, I was just sad and hurt I guess that I knew that because of what I've done, I wasn't wanted to be around her and wasn't invited to go out and have fun also. So...

Saturday Mar 17: I went go-kart racing with a church group and it was ok. I got black-flagged every race I was in due to aggressive driving, but it's a public place with lots of liabilities so they pretty much don't allow you to touch another kart or the wall or they black-flag you. WIMPS! I come home from that go get some groceries for her and then I go to my brother-in-laws (her brother) with the kids like I do every weekend I have them. What I missed while I was gone is that she came home to talk to me. Not about the R or us at all but just as a friend because she is kindof having a falling out with her friend that she stays with and she needed to vent. Not being there I guess was a good thing according to DR tactics, but I was just thrilled that she came to talk to me when she was in need of someone to listen. So...

Sunday Mar 18: We had made plans earlier in the week to take the boat out today because the weather here in Cali has been unseasonably warm. My mood for the day was that of being mildly upset still about seeing her leave me Friday night to go out drinking with her friends. Which frames what happens next. I take the boys to church and while I'm leaving she texts me and asks if it is warm enough to take the boat to the lake today. I text her back ASSUMING that she is looking to get out of it with, 'Not sure. I'm going anyways' Now does that sound short to anyone else! I thought so. So a few texts back and forth about time then we have major miscommunication. She texts me that she doesn't want her friend to know, she just doesn't want her to know, what should she tell her. SO, I immediately get more pissed because I ASSUME that she doesn't want her friend to know shes hanging out with me because her friend will think less of her for hanging out with her cheating H. So I text her back that, 'You should probably just stay with her then. I don't want to be the reason your friends are mad at you.' Nice and short! So, I'm all bent now because she just texts back 'K'. That's it, not going. So I take the kids to my mom and go to the gym because I have some MAJOR anxiety to work off and I know I need to. I decided to call her to explain myself (trying to do what our counselor told us back in Nov. before the affair was revealed) and be open with her and communicate my feelings so there was no guessing on either part. What she meant to text about her friend not knowing was that she didn't want her friend to 'GO'. She was putting on her makeup and texting at the same time so she messed up. We talked it out and she ended up going out with us and we had a really good time. Talking (me listening) with her about her friend and how she annoys her etc. So...

Monday, Mar 19: She comes home from her graveyard shift and tells me that her friend was whining about her ex-boyfriend that dumped her and her friend was saying, 'I realized it's not really him I miss but the relationship.' My W not being one to get over things quickly and still pissed at her friend simply said in a room full of her friends and coworkers that all know our sitch, 'You know what I realized? I really miss hanging out with Brandon. I spent all day with him and had a really great time.' This is HUGE for her to be open and vunerable with her friends and coworkers like this! I simply loved it, but didn't express my excitement. just kept the conversation at a conversation level. So...

Tuesday, Mar 20: She is going to school and has been struggling because of everything that I've done to her and the pain that I've put her though, so she's not doing well in her current class. Well today she found out that she failed another test, and is failing the course. She called me and wanted to meet for coffee and I knew it was about her school. Didn't even think for a second that it was about the big-D paperwork. It wasn't. It was about school. When she got to the coffee place she started crying. I just grabbed her and held her and reassured her that she is smart and capable and how proud I was of her and she should be proud of herself in light of everything that I've done to her. I also apologized for putting her through all of this when she is going to school to attain her dream of becoming a nurse. We had coffee and then got into some GOOD R/M/future talk. She still is not ready to make a decision (more later) but I offered her this. Now, before I say what it is, I offered this purely out of a desire for her to be happy and to have an easier life. I told her we could sell the house and she could get an apartment and I would continue to stay at my dads while she decided about the M. This would get us completely out of debt, money in the bank, and allow her to not have to work and be able to focus on her school full time. She agreed. Throughout our coffee she told me things like 'this will be a fresh start', 'i don't feel like its over', 'i'm glad I have you', and some others, but those are the biggies. So...

Wednesday, Mar 21: Called her just to say hi and see how her day was going. Conversation was going ok until she asked "you didn't agree to sell the house just because you think you'll be able to move into the apartment with me, did you? Because you're not." Kinda hurt. No, but of course my goal is for our M to work, but I still know you need your time to make your decision. The convo went on and after I texted her "I feel like I've just been slapped to the ground. Not your problem though...I'll just deal with it." Which PISSED HER OFF! She texted back that Sorry, I have been completely honest with you about my feelings and where I stand, do you just not want to talk to me until I figure it out? This required another communication clearing phone call. The phone call went ok and I let her know that I was hurt and that I should have kept those feelings to myself and dealt with them on my own, and I shouldn't have pushed them off on her. I picked the kids up as usual on my way home and as soon as I got there she went to give me a hug and said I don't want you to be upset. I stopped her and told her that I owed her an apology. I gave her the full apology and then things were good for us for awhile. Until we got to signing the papers to list our house. I was really upset because it felt like a step towards permanent separation. She was really concerned that I was upset and was even telling me that she doesn't like to see me upset. She asked to sit on my lap to which I replied: "you can't do that. you can't give me false hope if you really don't mean things" So she didn't sit down but put her feet on my thigh when she sat down in another chair and re-iterated the good things from our Tuesday morning coffee which made me feel better. So...

Thursday, Mar 22: My cousin is had a double-masectomy and was in the hospital so I went to see her. I informed my W about this because she has been concerned about her for quite some time. She asked if she should go and I told her if she wanted to she was welcome. She came and we had MORE great friend time together. It is just amazing. She even put her head on my shoulder because she was tired at one point. When that was done she went back to work and I picked up the kids and took them home as usual. When she got home I was getting ready to leave and she said "you're not staying for dinner?" I resonded, "I wasn't invited and didn't want to assume it was ok to invade your space." She then invited me to stay, shortly after she said that I was also invited to stay and watch Grey's Anatomy with her. Made me feel quite good. Before Grey's started, we had some R talk. Not sure how it came up but I think it was because I was sad again about selling the house and her getting an apartment without me. But, we exchanged feelings (we're actually getting good at the communication thing) and she gave me the SECRET to the rest of our relationship! It is such a big SECRET that I feel like I'm now have information I wasn't supposed to have and that now I am cheating (not infidelity but like on a test) my way back into our R. She said she wasn't going to have me back until she was 100% sure she was ready to work on the M. I asked her what that meant to her. She said (secret time) "I need to be sure that I am not going to be hurt again. I am seeing if you can stay away from other women in the lack of sex from me. I am seeing if you keep with your program [SLAA] and keep going to church. I am waiting until I believe that the changes you've made are for real." SO! All I have to do is keep doing exactly what I have been (which I would have no matter what) and eventually she will believe (I hope) that my changes are for good! She even said that she doesn't know if I won't be moving into the apartment with her because it may take two months to sell the house and she MAY be ready to have me move back by then!

SO hard not to get my hopes up! We are going out tonight and tomorrow night so I'm sure I'll have another long post about how that goes. Pray for me and my insecurites tonight.

Thanks for everything,
B

[Alaska]

"I need to be sure that I am not going to be hurt again. I am seeing if you can stay away from other women in the lack of sex from me. I am seeing if you keep with your program [SLAA] and keep going to church. I am waiting until I believe that the changes you've made are for real."

I haven't followed your sitch....what does this mean?? Did you have an affair?? What is SLAA??

[OldFool]

More steps in the right direction. The trend is good!

Don't know if you noticed this...but I did. It seems you get into trouble with texting. That's not surprising because it is a brief (perhaps even curt) form of communication sans emotion. As such, it is a poor substitute for folks who are ostensibly working on their communication skills. You might try avoiding it for a while and see if you get into less trouble.

I'd give you the whole song-and-dance about assuming...but I think you already know it. Just remember to take a few minutes (if you can) before reacting/responding and make sure it isn't based, in whole or in part, on an assumption you are making that might be wrong.

[30andLost]

OF,

You're so right! Texting is my downfall! In fact, now that you mention it, every, and I mean EVERY, negative interaction we've had since this started, has been started by a text I've sent her when I'm feeling hurt or hopeless or just plain sad. So, avoiding those will be my new goal. A new bottom-line for me. Thanks, AGAIN, for the insight!

I have done a LOT of work on the assuming part, which is largly rooted in my insecurities, but you can see I'm a work in progress. One of the SLAA guidelines teaches "spiritual progress, not spiritual perfection." One common character defect that love addicts like me have is perfectionism. If things aren't perfect, we assume they are complete failures. I even transferred this to my R, where if I wasn't her whole world, then she didn't love me at all. A truly unhealthy way to operate. I am learning that it is ok if things aren't perfect. I am learning to accept this of myself too. I've even told my W that if she decides to take me back, I'm not going to be perfect. I told her I believe I'm never going to cheat on her again, but my insecurites and control issues are always going be a problem for me. Just like the alcoholic has to work to stay away from alcohol for the rest of his life, I will have to work to stay away from my being 'addicted' to her for the rest of my life. The control and insecurities will come out from time to time, but as I work those issues the occurances should be farther and farther apart. This is the same for the assuming part too. I am going through a complete character transformation here and the road is rough -- for both of us. I have lived the past 25 years of my life by my own will in the sick and twisted ways of a love addict. It is going to take a little time to change that thinking, feeling, and acting. I have made HUGE progress, but I accept, as I said, I am a work in progress. Potentially for the rest of my life.

Alaska,

Read my very first post. All the details are there. I am the cheater, and I really crushed my W's spirt with the way I went about revealing it. SLAA is Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. A 12-step program for dealing with the addiction. A truly eye opening transformation has occured in me, and I thank God everyday for getting me to that program.

Thanks for the replies,
B