Whoa, things really get confusing when the W gets all understanding on me, though. You know, sometimes she tells me that she "understands" me and just isn't po'd about everything that's gone under the bridge with us, even with the Ps.
(That has nothing to do with the fact that she's no longer "piecing," but rather trying to "chop up" whatever binds us together as a couple anymore.)
I just don't know if I should take any of that at face value. She's been "understanding" before - right before the flames start singing off my eyebrows. I'm figuring that there's a hell of a lot of hidden anger with her, and that she's great at hiding it.
No wonder, 'cause she did hide most of it for something like forever. I'd only see hints of it most of the time, or get both barrels of it every few months or so.
I think thoughout the process (DB'g and even early piecing - if that is what you are doing), the rule still needs to be, believe NONE of what you see and only about 1/2 of what you hear.
I also think that our WAS's have an undeniable ability to repress a lot of anger over time. Haven't they been the one's not understood, loved, etc. Or, said another way, don't they FEEL that way.
It is important through the process to start showing real understanding. By that, I mean listening and validating that you heard what is being sent. If your W is anything like was, she doesn't trust you. Mine NEVER had my ear for more than a couple minutes for years in our R. During our separation, on nights I was bringing back my boys, I'd let her vent (about whatever). I'd eliminate any distractions (TV, whatever), make eye contact, face her, and listen. I'd NEVER offer a solution (unless directly asked) or defend something I did that led to our separation. It was great practice and something I still do today. Now, I'm not saying be a wuss if she is attacking YOU as a person - I expect DIGNITY and RESPECT. However, if she is spilling how things made her feel, I completely validated her feeling.
I really buy into some of the stuff you get from Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus (Gray)and another book called For Men Only (Feldhahn). I have found that the MOST important thing for my W is for her to feel, somehow CONNECTED to me - when the balance of connection shifts, even now, I can sense her fear. It took me MONTHS of making this connection to get her to the point where she trusts me. Also note, I started asking open ended questions, then I would ask her to explain it to me (as if I were a 5 year old). Very powerful - and great for me as I got "re-aquainted" with someone that had been telling me yes and now only for years.
I ALSO worked hard to understand what about my W's upbringing "made" her what she is today. As an child of divorced parents and an adult child of an alcoholic (ACOA), trust issues (unkept promises) are prevelant. I don't know your W's background so you might want to tell us a little bit about that, but repressed anger in my mind is triggered by something in the past as a survival mechanism. I know it was for my W. She started to ball when in an MC session the C in essence framed a picture of my W, running to the corner store just to get away from her drunk parent - there it was safe and eventually she could go home knowing her parent was passed out and would stop yelling at her, disappointing her, etc. It rips your heart out, but it gets you to understanding why you spouse has been surpressing anger and disappointment - it is safer than the alternative perhaps, and they have not other outlet.
Soooooooooooooooooo, this was a big ass tangent and may not be applicable but I really did find that for me to make real progress I first needed to get myself health, GAL and become the person *I* wanted to be. And one element of that was improving my listening/understanding skills with all people - which has had great impacts on all my relationships - especially the most important ones to me - my W and my kids.
I'll make one other note here. All of the above happened AFTER I accepted that my marriage was over - that I was getting divorced. I put all the anger and bitterness in me BEHIND me - trust me really hard to swallow but I figured that to do anything less would only impede my progress. I was then FREE to make whatever type of relationship with my W that I wanted - at the time, simply a friend and that was good enough for me. Last thing I wanted was for my kids to have to live through two divorced parents at each other all the time. So, I treated her like a friend. I DIDN'T bring up history, or start R talks. I'd help when I could help (not always, that is part of letting them stand on their own and part of GAL).
I really think you need to be patient and keep working on you. Her demons are your demons. This takes time.
It can be done. My W was about as "DONE" and angry as the best of them out there and we've been able to find out way back to each other. Like I posted on GH's thread, her inscription on the VDay card she gave me was all I needed to prove that. It said, "I'm glad you're home".
Hope that helps somehow.
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
I usually post over on the SSM board but thought I would see what’s going on elsewhere and pulled up your thread. What I am hearing is that you seem to want to avoid any responsibility of being the bad guy. Contrary to Piglet’s thought’s, you are the only reason your wife and parents interact at all. If not for you she would never have to talk to them. The fact that she puts up with ANY abuse from them at all is testament to some level of devotion to you. Have you acknowledged this to her?
You talking in the third person also bothers me, and don’t give me the excuse that you want to remain anonymous. Anonymity has nothing to do with first or third person. Start speaking in terms of “I” and accept you role in the marriage. My bet is that you do a similar deflection with your wife and she feels abandoned for it. Might have something to do with her walking.
At some point in any man’s life, he must make a decision about who he is going to stand by – his mother or his wife. Sometimes he can have both, if the two get along well. But in your case I don’t see that working. You need to make it clear to your parents that you side with your wife, you give her your devotion, you will not tolerate any more derogatory remarks about her, and that if necessary, you will start to lower your contacts with them. And you need to say this to them WITH YOUR WIFE PRESENT. That will bury that issue once and for all.
The bigger problem IMO, is why are you reluctant to stand up and lead as the man? Have you read “Way of the Superior Man” by David Dieda? If not, I suggest you order it ASAP. He is discussed often, along with other authors, on the SSM board. I suspect your wife’s behavior has a lot to do with how you feel about you, she is just having to deal with the consequences of that and she does not like it.
SventheRed,
You are right about the importance of examining your FOO. You will get a lot more on how you interact with your wife if you drop the “Men are from Mars” stuff and pick up Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch.
One thing I can definetely say is to stick up for her to the parents and do it in front of her.
I did this early on in my sitch. So long ago that I had forgotten about it. But looking back it threw such a monkey wrench in who my wife thought I was that she really had to step back and take a look. At that point for me the confusion it created was good. Might very well have been a major starting point for us. There was much more to come after that but maybe it wouldn't have come without that.
Just the other day my wife told me how she is trying to break the habit of saying "YOUR MOTHER..." When reffering to my mother and to reffer to her by her first name. She says she is making sure not to blame me for my mother. She corrects herself on this all the time now. That has to be a good thing.
Well, I see what you all mean, as different as your perspectives are. What seems to tie all of this together is the particular situation my wife finds herself in, as well as (as you might imagine) issues between my Ps and myself.
My W comes from a very "dysfunctional" family. When we first met, I didn't really understand the severity of the effect that had on her, as she did a good job of hiding or dissimulating it.
My own relationship with my Ps is quite different, albeit not exactly perfect. For the most part, they were fairly permissive, perhaps even excessively so. However, they still managed to somehow make me feel like a child (or at least some sort of "minor") long after I had become an adult. I think that because there had never been any necessity for a definite "breaking off" with them - as a big fight, or of moving away from home at 18, or joining the army, or whatever - they continued a sort of "parental" attitude toward me, which I took for granted.
Now here's the issue: their "parental attitude" toward me was extended toward my wife. What they simply saw as "good advice" was felt be her to be way over the line.
Of course, I did not see this very clearly. In fact, because she didn't really tell me about this until she was good and mad (and really at the point of never forgiving them), I entered into the situation as a kind of peacemaker. Remember, I'm thinking that this is a simple misunderstanding.
The upshot is that I did not sense that I had to perform any dramatic declaration of my dedication to my wife. I took it for granted that she knew it.
A very big mistake.
Now I'm trying to find a way to deal with the aftermath. She is also looking for a way to get around the hurt this has caused her.
That's why I'm looking for advice here.
I've already very clearly indicated to my Ps that my W is number one. But since she will not speak to them, I have not done it "in front of her."
In addition, my Ps do maintain that they did nothing out of disrespect, but only out of concern (as presumptuous as that sounds), which is very difficult to "disprove". All I can do is to reiterate to them that the EFFECT of what they did hurt my wife and that I will not stand for it any more.
I can tell you, it would be a hell of a lot easier if they were simply wicked. When there is decency mixed with insensitivity and presumption, picking your way through the mess is a herculean task.
I'm not trying to run away from my fault here. I am trying to figure out how to make up for it.
I'm not trying to run away from my fault here. I am trying to figure out how to make up for it.
It's been a while since you last posted - and some excellent revelations on your part. WRT the quote - I think your have started by making up for it in your ownership of the issue and attempts to address it.
I think now as it was once put to me, you need the tincture of time.
I was in the same place a year ago - frustrated because I was finally dealing with my folks and the "harm" they put into our relationship. Mine folks too are not evil people, but clearly stuck their nose in the wrong place at the wrong time - or just said things that for them might not seem hurtful but to my W, were. I framed it once with them this way. I asked my mom if she said something that was out of order (even if only slightly) to a complete stranger, would she retract it or apologize. "Yes" she said. So I asked her then why wouldn't you retract something you say to family? And, furthermore, aren't "in-laws" in some ways, always "strangers". I told them I expect that they cease defending their "loving, parenting actions" which caused the hurt, but instead just apologise. And when the desire to provide coaching comes up in the future, don't do it - UNLESS asked.
But I was frustrated because I was dealing with it, but I wasn't able to have my W see it. So I kept working on that behind the scenes, while GAL'g for me and leading my life they way I wanted it to be led.
It seems to me that you have come a long way in the last couple weeks in terms of understanding the problem and architecting a solution. Continue your course and with time, hopefully the anger will fade. Just know you cannot force it...
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
