Harmonic Divergence

[Lillieperl]

I am really having difficulty knowing how to act without being seen as controlling.

Don't disappear from the R in an attempt to be "nice" and give her lots of room. It's okay to act like you care what happens to the relationship. In fact, it's really important that you be present and visible, kwim? Has she given you some indication that she sees you as controlling? Most women (who were still emotionally invested in the marriage) IMHO would think it was sweet that their H wanted them to wear his ring.

FWIW when I was married the first time, I had an affair. (Long time ago, I've been divorced over 30 years now, and my first H has been happily remarried over 30 years.) When my husband asked me, I told the truth. Often-- maybe even most of the time--people do lie, but they can welcome the opportunity to finally get it out in the open, especially if they are planning on leaving. Someone who is planning on continuing an affair and NOT leaving is more likely to want to keep it a secret. I wouldn't assume she would lie about it. She might. She might not.

I think it's worth asking her. See what she says.

[blackfoot]

There is no point in asking about it UNTILL you know that she is.
IF she is not its lose lose lose for you to ask.
If she is and you know, its simply confirmation, and a test of her honesty. Though as Lil pointed out lots of time people love to unload the pressure cooker of guilt.

About the bench, its finished. Its a nice gesture. Dont make a big deal about it, or expect a n y t h i n g in return. Not even a kind word. Giving her the gift is another opportunity to observe her reaction. When she returns home approach her normally to give her a greeting kiss, etc. If she is aloof or offers you her cheek, peck it and then detach. Do not be hesitant or grasping.

Nop is very busy and doesnt always have time to explain the whys of his reasons. Besides a lot of this is understanding/feeling/getting the whys for yourself.
His advise is not always something the recipient is capable of doing, but it is not ever wrong advice. IMhO.

Stop listening to Dido/White flag. your W will not respect you for going down with the ship of your M. however if your Musical taste is as eclectic as it appears to be so far, please feel free to post your playlists. Im always on the lookout for differant and 'new to me'. I really miss CSW's music threads.

[Lord Grenville]

Thanks for the advice, Blackfoot, Lillieperl, and Nopkins,

Part of me wants to put my dog in the car, and drive down to NYC (which would be a 5 hour drive) to find out TODAY whether there is an OM. But that could really backfire for me and our marriage if my wife is not having an affair.

I have also been thinking of getting keylogger software for our home computer to check on her e-mail and web usage. I could accomplish that in the next week and it might give me evidence without a crazed drive to New York and back.

The real problem I have right now is that my I have been working as a freelance designer and illustrator, and a steady part-time gig from the past years just ended recently, so right now I am effectively unemployed but looking for new work. My wife has always made more $$ due to her full time employment with Tufts University. If we separate our finances then I am going to have a difficult time making ends meet for myself.

I will look into the books that NOPkins recommended, but right now I am still reading DB and my wife and I are both still making our way through "Codependent No More" that our counselor has us reading. I also have two books of required reading for a business development course for artists I am enrolled in. So my head is already swimming in non-fiction. I wish I could just escape with some good fiction right now, but the way life is going, I feel like Will Ferrell's character in "Stranger than Fiction", where someone is writing a twisted path of destiny that is playing out on a daily basis.

[NOPkins]

Hi, HG.

The key-logger sounds like a good start.

Don't fall apart at the thought of an affair. You are not the first person this has happened to. Life is feeding you a crap sandwich, and you have no choice but to eat it. The thing is, how you approach it and deal with it matters.

I agree that the drive out would probably be a waste of time, unless you can pull it off undetected. That would be hard to do. For now, leave her suspicions of your suspicions, muted.

Let's talk about your diet. If you are consuming large quantities of soy products, stop it immediately so that your testosterone levels can return to normal. Soy is replete with estrogen like chemicals to the point that it can effectively cause a form of male chemical castration. You need your testosterone. No soy products for you.

Do get the books. You need the information they contain.

Obviously your employment proclivities lean toward the arts, for the immediate future, you need to get a job and start generating your own source of income. This will help you afford supplies you need, and improve your wife's image of you.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[Lord Grenville]

... Anyway, she lost 30+ lbs, and NOW she's too fat for the wedding ring?!?

How did she lose 30-40 lbs in a few weeks? THAT doesn't sound possible... Did she start wearing the ring on another finger in preparation for taking it off altogether?

You say she's been depressed for about a year? What else happened besides the move?

Now that I think about it, it was 6 weeks ago when I noticed she wasn't wearing her ring on her ring finger, and I just saw some notes in my journal that she told me she removed it 6 weeks prior to that when it was too tight. She showed me a still visible circular indentation where it had been. (I know - like most men, I do not always pay attention to what rings she is wearing or not wearing).

She probably started losing weight over the autumn as she mentioned she had lost her appetite and began having trouble sleeping - this is what lead her to go to a therapist in December. The emergence of years of repressed emotions is what has been going on. I have asked her many times in many different ways over the past weeks, if there is anything specific that I have done or have been doing to affect our relationship or marriage in a negative manner. The ONLY thing she has verbalized so far, is that going back as far as 1989 (!) she felt I was spending a little too much time doing volunteer work and spending time and energy in various capacities as a Board member of environmental groups or Trustee of our current and previous condominium associations, etc., which meant I had less time and energy to build an art & design business that we could work together in. It took her 17 years to tell me this!

[Lord Grenville]

Thanks for the additional information NOPkins!

I had no idea about the effects of soy products. I do not eat as much tofu, soy milk, etc. as I used to a few years ago, but I will cut way back.

I am making a good effort to find employment for the very reasons you have mentioned, and I know it will be good for my mental health to have the structure of a regular job.

I will get those books soon, as I will finish DB and the Codependency books within the next week.

Thanks everyone - I am off to yoga class and my day's activities. I will check back later tonight.

Marc

[fearless]

Hi Marc,

I'm so sorry to see you here. Those of us who have already gone through this can relate. And it's the kind of relating you wish you never had to do because it brings back the old feelings. At the same time what we have to offer is the view of how it looks from the other side. And there is an other side no matter which way things go for you.

So here is some "advice" both for you personally and for how to "use" the DB board. As always with advice, this is based on my own personal experience and my own opinions, so take with a grain of salt and at least consider how it relates to your goals and your own experience even if you don't follow any of it:)

First board use -

1) This might not be the best forum for you. The stories here are a bit different than those in the "Newcomers" and in "Infidelity, etc." and it can help to have people in the same frame of mind. Different opinions are great but a different state of mind can be a problem. See #1 in personal advice.

2) Decide what your state of mind is and what your goals are. Do you want your wife and marriage regardless of whether there is an OM? Are you willing to go through some personal pain and personal growth (there is an upside to this pain if you're willing to work) to get to a healthy marriage again? (There aren't any "right or wrong" answers. It's just good to know where you stand)

3) Also it's best to only post in one place so there is a clear story line for you and everyone else.


And for some personal advice.

1) Read Divorce Remedy and/or Divorce Busting ( I read Divorce busting myself) closely if keeping your marriage intact is your primary goal. Again no right or wrong just keep clear on your goal. My xH (so DBing didn't work exactly the way I had wanted but it did work for my personal mental health AND I think it potentially could have saved the marriage if I had found it earlier) had had an affair and was treating me pretty badly emotionally. If I had wanted, I had plenty of friends who would have been "aghast" (just poking at Black Foot:) but he's ignoring me) that I was putting up with such terrible treatment from my H. They would have rallied to my side and told me I didn't deserve such treatment, encouraged me to move on, "divorce the bum", etc. Not necessarily a "bad" thing or "wrong" advice but not the support I needed and wanted to get to my personal goal - keeping my marriage intact.

2) In my opinion (and in DBing principles), finding out whether there is an actual OM, physically or emotionally, is of no real use IF keeping the marriage intact is your main goal. It can drive you crazy and waste a lot of good energy. Plus your reaction to potential OM can create behaviors that make you look needy, weak, unsure of yourself, etc. Which are NOT good characteristics if you're trying to make yourself more attractive. Also if along the way you do find out there is an OM, you can actually "use" that to your advantage. Remember part of the attraction of the other person (OP) is how confident they are and how much fun they are, sometimes the dynamic switches along the way and the OP becomes the jealous and insecure one who is "spying" and clinging as the spouse makes the changes that reinvigorate the marriage.

3) Be careful with 180s. They are a great tool to reinvent yourself and to get back to the you that you love and that your wife loved. Don't guess at doing 180s that are specifically for your wife. Make them about what you want from yourself. Don't do them with the thought that you expect something from your wife - reaction, positive reinforcement, etc. Trust that she can see them even if she doesn't comment directly.

4) Check kml (Ellie) old threads on "Piecing" Forum. She is a success story and a great person also. Her H had an affair and yet their marriage has survived. They still have rough spots but remember her goal was to make the marriage last and be the best Ellie she could be and she's succeeded at both:)

5) Read the do's and Don'ts below.

MANDATORY DO'S WHEN DIVORCE BUSTING
1. Be patient. Time is an asset even when it seems to be killing you.
2. Listen carefully to what your spouse is REALLY saying to you.
3. Learn quickly that anger is your enemy
4. Learn quickly to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
5. Take care of yourself. Exercise, sleep, laugh, and focus on all the other chances in your life that are not in turmoil.
6. Be cool, strong, confident and speak softly.
7. Know that if you can do a 180, your smallest consistent actions will be noticed much more than ANY words you can say or write.
8. Read as much as you can on this subject

MANDATORY DON'T's WHEN DIVORCE BUSTING
1. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more then ever in your whole life and are desperate and needy.
2. Do not focus on your self when communicating with your spouse.
3. Do not believe any of what you hear and less then 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and they are scared.
4. Do not fall into the "green eggs and ham" trap. (see Dr. Seuss for clarity)
5. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
6. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.


Good Luck and Hang in there!!!!!!!!!!

[Cobra]

LG,

If you truly are a romantic type, then I think Chromosphere might be able to offer some advice. I don’t see anything wrong with being a romantic per se, but I see it as a form of idealizing, living in a dream world and detaching from reality. That can be good for an artist, but maybe your W feels left out of your dreams? Also, based on what little you’ve told us of your behavior, could you be a little down on the self confidence and maybe a little prone to feeling sorry for yourself (Chrome, jump in here)?

None of that can be good, and for many reasons. I can see how romanticism COULD be a form of escape, and therefore a defense mechanism to shield you from something, possibly intimacy? You convince yourself you are romantic but the detachment with reality precludes you from ever truly being intimate, and therefore romantic. Romanticism might also put your wife on a pedestal, which could be uncomfortable for her. If she has weight problems, could she also have self esteem issues? If so, feeling like she needs to play the role of some sort of princess might feel like a lot of pressure to her, pressure to fulfill your fantasy, not hers. Resentment can grow from that.

Connecting with someone who is grounded in reality, accepts hers as she is, without pretense or expectations might feel very comforting to her. In that way, this other person might fill some of her needs, instead of her feeling like she has to fill your needs (this last bit is just a guess on my part). Anyway, I think there is a lot in your past that you will have to uncover.

BTW, IMO don't waste your time on the other forums.

[Cobra]

Fearless,

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound like I was taking away anything from your advice to read up on KML.

[fearless]

Hey a quick reply to my own post because I just read NOPkins posts and signature line. I agree that affairs are awful and that there are definitely, in my opinion, character flaws which allow people to engage in such deceitful activity. Obviously they allow themselves to feel some "entitlement" in order to do something that is obviously wrong.

My only point with my post and opinion is that going down the path of confronting them may not get you the result you want if the result is keeping the marriage together. If someone is just looking for the easy way to end the marriage but still has just enough sense to know that an affair is wrong and is trying to hide it, then exposing it could make the option of just leaving easier. (Yeah yeah a lot of caveats because there is no exact right answer unfortunately.)

However you would have to know your spouse and her reaction to know what's the best way. In my opinion, since she's already broached the subject of separation and written about divorce, that doesn't appear to be the exact right approach but I couldn't say for sure.

Her quotes for her journal (which by the way don't ever snoop again!!) don't seem to indicate to me that there is any one right now. Just seem to be the mlc thoughts of "someone" else out there who could be the one.

By the way the reasons for not snooping. 1) waste of time and energy 2) then you react to her rather than being the person she reacts to 3) even when you find something you usually have to interpret which you can easily do incorrectly 4) It just makes you feel weak, needy and insecure.

I am a reformed snooper and I can tell you personally my self esteem, feeling of strength and mood was so much better when I gave it up cold turkey.

Just wanted to clarify so you (and NOPkins) don't think I disagree with NOPkins thoughts. I just have another view which may or may not be helpful.