Perhaps I am confusing everyone because we are really talking about two things here. One is my advice to Hairdog. I stand by what I said. I think he needs to strike a balance between exerting his own power in the relationship but holding short of making it into a confrontation that could escalate further. In this way he needs to differentiate because it seems to be they are both very enmeshed.
My statement about cleaning the yard is from my personal experience, that as an enmeshed person, I felt statements like that put me on the spot. That does not mean that I do not believe in differentiating, but IMO it is a realistic acknowledgement that becoming differentiated and not reacting to such a statement is a slow process. I believe that no matter how “healthy” we become, we will always have an internal reaction to our hot buttons. Maybe we control it to the point that it is barely noticeable, but for someone who is fully enmeshed and under no desire to control their response, that kind of statement can cause damage.
Sometimes moving forward requires taking a step back for every two steps forward. Other times it means not ever stepping back at all, even if no forward progress is made. I see the potential damage from inflaming MrsHD as something to be avoided. HD needs to go to battle, but he needs to pick his fights carefully and engage in those that he feels are really important and be willing to concede on others. Winning the war does not mean winning every battle.
[quote][/quote]Well, I want a million dollars. I want to live in the country. I don't want to live in this city. I want you to not lie to me. I really feel like we've been close these last few weeks, and then you lied to me about x
Remember what I told you before about how the real benefit of being brutally honest with your spouse is that then your spouse will be brutally honest with you. Don't ignore what MsHD is saying here. She is frustrated with the life style concessions she has had to make in order to meet your need to maintain your family from your previous marriage. If she wasn't married to you she could live where she preferred. Of course, she probably doesn't want to "see" herself as the "evil step-mother" so she transfers her guilt for her "selfish" desires to you and your "selfish" sex drive. The perverse thing is that you are both stuck in this vicious cycle because you both strongly share the value of "caring for children.". This is evident in your posts and your W's choice of profession.
I can actually kind of empathize with MsHD. I would hate to be stuck living in the suburbs if the country is where I felt like I could better "nest". Maybe if you were able to give her an opportunity to be "generous" in this matter she would feel less resentment. You could offer to move to the country and then let her work through the issue of how this would affect your children. If you really don't trust her to do some version of the "right thing" in this matter then I really don't think you should be married to her.
Her issue with your "lies" is really just your own issue with you being a "wimp". The solution is to just be as honest as possible. In the case you detailed above, I think the truly honest thing to do would have been to not let MsHD make an inconvenient "rule" for you about kid pick-up that you didn't intend to "obey". You should have said "I think you are right. I will try to avoid having DD5 in the car in the future but sometimes I will choose convenience.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mojo: I really appreciate your viewpoint on this. I know she's made many concessions, and I have tried to be sensitive to that issue. She wields it like a sledgehammer sometimes, so I tend to just think, "yeah yeah, same old complaints." I have had fleeting thoughts of country living myself, recently, but I don't think it's particularly practical right now. Maybe just talking with her about it might give her a sense that I'm listening to her, and that I'm open to discussion.
And the lying thing, yeah. I just need to get over my fear of telling her that some of her rules make sense, but aren't necessarily practical.
Maybe just talking with her about it might give her a sense that I'm listening to her, and that I'm open to discussion.
I think that is an excellent idea. Goes back to my thought that a little care and understanding on a NEED/WANT may be just as effective as being able to meet that NEED/WANT. Listen to what your W is saying and don't ignore it. As has been stated on many threads, indifference is often the worst thing you can do.
I don't want to dilute your main point, I just had a question for you that relates to my situation. If your W were to agree to have sex with you once per week, but it was an "I'll help you satisfy your male urge but I don't want anything in return (or after you ejaculate I'm rolling over and going to bed)" type sex, would it be what you want? I know my question is partly rhetorical, because I don't think anyone wants that (which is why I am puzzled that some people think that it an acceptable thing to offer).
I guess I am just looking down the road for you, and seeing something similar for me. I worry about your W "caving in" to your demand for sex once per week, but making it an exercise in physical release rather than love making. I could see that creating new resentment inside you, on top of the old because it doesn't really solve the heart of the issue.
Maybe I am just rehashing the old "just do it" argument. The NOPs (and others) were apparently able to use scheduled sex and the just do it even if you don't want to approach and it eventually led to sexual desire in MrsNOPs.
Ramble ramble ramble
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
hairdog, Way to go, man! So you didn't bring it up, who cares. You didn't brush it off when the moment arrived and that is a huge victory! Stop underestimating your progress my friend.
I liked what you said. It is short and simple and somewhat forceful and man did it send her reeling. That's why she keeps repeating it and that is the reason for the midnight rendezvous between her arm and your side. You're leading, she's following, although in her own special way. (that is not, btw, a snipe at MrsHD) My prediction is that you will have sex before the week is out. IOW, she's full of a lot of hot air. She blusters and roars and then eventually does what you want. If you get sidetracked by the bluster then she goes off on HER path. Very interesting to watch. I can see some of the same dynamics at work in my own M. I have a lot of power and sway over my H and I used to think that this felt good but it really didn't. My new womanly power (which I didn't have until he started acting like the HD sucka that he evidently is) feels a lot better but you would not have been able to tell me that 10 years ago.
Stick with what is working. Remember that next time you feel the urge to placate her. You don't have to get as loud or as mean as her, simply talking calmly but not kowtowing to her suffices. Who knew!
Now........you know the dance. Next she's going to come at you with statistics and how NO ONE makes love once per week, you are being unreasonable and wtf is the matter with you anyway. Brush it off, refuse to have that convo and repeat what you did earlier. And then sit back and wait for her to rendezvous with you again. Yee haw.
I think he needs to strike a balance between exerting his own power in the relationship but holding short of making it into a confrontation that could escalate further. In this way he needs to differentiate because it seems to be they are both very enmeshed.
I don't know that this is necessarily true. I don't think NOP ever came off purposely trying to 'anger' Mrs. NOP, but I don't think he was worried if she, in fact, did get pissed off as he confronted the situation. As a matter of fact, he knew she was in all likelyhood going to be pissed, and there was going to be escalation. Which there was.
It took some stopping and starting and adjusting and retrying on both their parts. This did not happen overnight. More like a two year period (NOPS?). But... he remained consistent... and more importantly, he remained open and began to listen to her wants and needs as well (as MoJo and LFL have suggested HD also do with Mrs. HD).
I don't know that HD should purposely anger Mrs. HD., and I don't think he should fan the flames, on purpose, if she gets there... but I don't think he should back off his simple, calm, repetitive statement simply because he wants to avoid possible escalation. Ewh. Talk about placating.
He has picked his battle, IMO. I think Honeypot is right on with her predictions and advice as well.
But... he remained consistent... and more importantly, he remained open and began to listen to her wants and needs as well (as MoJo and LFL have suggested HD also do with Mrs. HD).
I think that it is very important to note that the consistency should be a prerequisite to the step of meeting her wants and needs because HD shouldn't be trying to meet her wants/needs in order to get more sex. This will only lead to resentment or escalation. In a way, what I was trying to convey is that he should consider to what extent he might be more LD himself if he did go out of his way to meet her needs/wants. For instance, if he ended up with a happy, horny wife but also a two hour daily commute to the country and a chicken coop to clean once he got home he might become the LD spouse.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I should add this sort of happened with me when my H pushed me too far on the "lose weight" issue. It got to a point where I realized that if my choice was half an hour at the gym and an evening spent watching American Idol (my guilty pleasure)and eating a bowl of lowfat ice cream or 2 hours at the gym, nothing but ice cubes for dessert and an evening of sex, I'd pick the former.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
