There is a difference between displaying quiet strength to a woman, and then trying to explain exactly why that quiet strength works on her, whether she wants it to or not. The two displays of behavior come off quite differently. Given the nature of the BB, I understand your direction and the purpose behind the latest post, but... "caution Will Rogers." KWIS? If you end up developing a much greater sense of humor with your knowledge... you're going to develop yourself into quite the irresistible man. IMHO, of course.
I personally see saying "we need to work in the yard this weekend" as a problem, and highly 'fused' language. We Speak, to me, is only healthy used in small doses, with great conservatism.
You guys have got my interest on the 'We speak' thing. I do that a lot and I guess I'm not seeing where it's a problem. If I happen to glance out into the yard and see that there is work to do, why would it be a problem to point out that we have yard work to do? I'm sure as heck not signing up to do it all by myself and I'm not specifically asking H to do anything because at that point, I'm only noticing there is work to be done, I'm not saying who's going to do what. I'm not that controlling, lol. I'm merely noticing and pointing out what needs to get done. I guess I should also point out that when I say we, I mean we. I'll mow, I'll pull weeds, whatever. I don't say we if I mean he. I'm not sure I'm getting it.
Last edited by heatherg; 02/14/0703:13 PM.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
No. I thought it was kind of headed that direction when she didn't respond to my "good night" on Monday, but when she hugged me in the middle of the night, it seemed to signal a change (although her later flailing that morning was more about her trying to re-assert her frustration with me.) And, subsequent to yesterday morning, it's been absolutely normal around here. But my guard is still up.
Quote:
How did you feel afterwards?
At first, relieved. Then I felt just plain good about myself. I've felt that way, for the most part, since Monday night.
I personally see We Speak as a projection of one's own world onto another. You may feel that there is 'work to be done' in the yard, yet your H may look out and see a yard that looks fine just the way it is. When you say, 'we have work to do,' you are assuming he shares your views, goals and objectives on the state of the yard.
Now, if you look out into the yard and see the weeds that need pulled and grass that needs mowed, you may say to your H... "Honey, the yard, to me, looks like it could use some work. If you don't have other plans this weekend, would you be willing to help me out with it?"
I guess, to me, the second approach is much more likely to illicit a positive response than the former. Goes back to Burg's post on 'otherness.' The latter recognizes 'Otherness' for yourself and your spouse, in the former, or We Speak, there is no sense of 'Otherness.'
In my mind, the objective is for a couple to become united as one.
I don't believe I have EVER disagreed with any statement made on this board as much as I disagree with this one. There is NO way two people can become one IMHO, and if even there were, I wouldn't want to become one with somebody. I remember when my late H was still alive, I came across a relationship book that presented this pov and I simply threw it in the trash. And I'm a true lover of books.
I'm much more an adherent of the Kahlil Gibran school of thought: "let there be spaces in your togetherness."
If you are "one" or pretend you are, where is the Otherness? There are certainly moments, especially when IN LOVE, which give the delicious illusion of being one. But this is transitory, as it should be.
Also cobra, my R with bf is going really well these days. I probably should create a thread bringing y'all up to date, but it's much more interesting meddling in other people's lives. Basically I've stopped meddling in his life; I've even stopped going with him to the C, because it was only a place for me to complain. He has also started attending a really great men's AA meeting, and in this way, I see him stepping up to the plate re his own recovery. You're making assumptions based on the past and we've evolved a lot.
Re "we speak"-- I think it's bad for relationships, personal and professional... as is the use of the passive voice. I have a client who uses the passive voice all the time and it makes me nuts: "I was told that a report was needed." WHO told you to do the report? "I was given... A donation was made..." You can't do business in the passive voice!
Can you imagine an office full of "we speak"? "We need to have some coffee here." "We need to get ready for the board meeting." "This weld in the nuclear reactor needs to be inspected for cracks." "This kidney needs a transplant."
Gimmeabreak!
Ditto what corri said. If you want something done or want something from your partner, it's a lot cleaner and clearer to take the risk and OWN your want. Please, hairdog, just say "Will you please help me rake the leaves (or shovel the snow)?" or "If I rake the leaves, will you whatever?" <"give me a b.j.?"> j/k
I think that with an objective of trying to set the ideal, I would agree with you. But we are dealing with reality, not the ideal. Everyone on this board, as far as I can tell, is dysfunctional in his/her own way. Each has insecurities and fears that need soothing. For Mrs HD, I think she has a lot of those insecurities. I think she really wants to be assured. Anything less is seen as a threat in her eyes and she automatically puts it in an adversarial perspective (which I am not blaming on her, it just how she was “trained.”)
Just as I think it can be VERY useful for some really dysfunctional couples to re-enmesh in order to stop the anxiety reactions and then progress toward differentiation at a slower, more sustainable pace, I am thinking that use of “we” is really what Mrs HD wants to hear. That does not mean it is where the relationship needs to stay. I see it as more of a stepping stone.
I agree with your examples of using “we” in the office. But that is not really the same as what we are talking about with relationships. In the office there needs to be Indians and chiefs.
Corri,
Now, if you look out into the yard and see the weeds that need pulled and grass that needs mowed, you may say to your H... "Honey, the yard, to me, looks like it could use some work. If you don't have other plans this weekend, would you be willing to help me out with it?"
I agree this is the best response and the most “functional.” But coming from a dysfunctional past, that statement would sound to me like it has a certain air of confrontation to it, that my wife would be putting squarely on my lap the need to in turn assert my plans and whether I would be willing to help do yard work with her or not. I requires that I step up to maintain my boundaries, and I may not want to do that. If I choose not to help, then I am worrying whether she will get mad and sour the atmosphere which could then lead up to another fight. It is avoidance, I don't deny that, but let's be real what what we are dealing with here.
So my point is that if two people are not to the point of having worked past this type of enmeshment, the above statement can present a challenge and even a possible threat that could be avoided. I do think it is important the both people eventually learn why your statement is better, but it takes time to get there, and when a push is made to become too healthy too fast, the other person can rebel and set the whole process back a long way. So I still think use of the “we” can be appropriate.
Why don't you beat her to the punch and say "gee, the house needs cleaning" or "gee, the yard needs mowing"? How would that go over?
The only way W will make any changes is to see YOU making huge changes and not backing down. This will have to be super consistent for a very long time. Have a friend whose sister is exactly like your W...controlling and rules the roost. Except her H says "OK honey" every time. In this kind of sitch, nothing ever changes. I agree with the statement someone made..."I have no intention of finding out why I want to ML once a week". Do NOT explain yourself.
I don't think it is so much that she doesn't want it, she is just hell bent on being determined not to let you cross the line or give up her control. Happy she is not. Ask her why she is so determined to control this situation...that answer lies deep and it won't be pretty...because this is the real question in this whole scenario...
But coming from a dysfunctional past, that statement would sound to me like it has a certain air of confrontation to it, that my wife would be putting squarely on my lap the need to in turn assert my plans and whether I would be willing to help do yard work with her or not. It requires that I step up to maintain my boundaries, and I may not want to do that. If I choose not to help, then I am worrying whether she will get mad and sour the atmosphere which could then lead up to another fight. It is avoidance, I don't deny that, but let's be real what what we are dealing with here.
If you truly believe this, then you've just negated, in my eyes, everything that you've been saying to Hairdog.
I was just at Borders and they have David Sedaris' Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim in hardback for $5.99 so I got one for a friend of mine (I already have my own copy), nominally for Valentine's Day since she's a girl. I also bought Naked (not on sale) for myself.
David Sedaris r00lz.
That is all.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Basically I've stopped meddling in his life; I've even stopped going with him to the C, because it was only a place for me to complain. He has also started attending a really great men's AA meeting, and in this way, I see him stepping up to the plate re his own recovery. You're making assumptions based on the past and we've evolved a lot.