Muddle, it appears what your W did was take revenge on you by attempting to embarrass you in public. The funnny thing is all she did was make herself look worse than you could have done even if you were trying! It's quite OK to want something to be done or not done but what it comes down to is how you work with the other person to make it so. If she sincerely wants you to not mention PAYLESS in front of others then she should bring it up with you in a way that will get her what she wants. Obviously what she wants is to lash out and hurt! So for you to address every little complaint is probably a cheesless tunnel, it's not what is really going on. In my example, W waited to get back to hotel to address it with me as opposed to lashing out in public, this in turn, made me more open to changing my behaviour. Your W isn't looking for a solution here, just wants to vent and lash out. But, I'm sure that's not news to you! Take care.
Muddle, it appears what your W did was take revenge on you by attempting to embarrass you in public.
Was she? I didn't ask her, I don't know. I'm more inclined to think she ran away to escape the embarassing situation, but I don't know. I'm not going to claim to know either. That's the source of a lot of our troubles. Communicating about this directly would yield solutions, assuming motivations will lead to more problems. I was just trying to point out how I could be hurt that she "tried to embarass me" when this is something that only happened in my paranoid self involved perception. Could it have happened in reality? Sure, but unless she has communicated this to me directly I am judging her. Who am I to judge and how will it improve the situation if I do?
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It's quite OK to want something to be done or not done but what it comes down to is how you work with the other person to make it so. If she sincerely wants you to not mention PAYLESS in front of others then she should bring it up with you in a way that will get her what she wants.
This particular issue is far more difficult than coming to a simple agreement about something. Yet that might itself be because I'm complicating it with all of the concepts I'm bringing into the picture. When it comes down to it, I did something that embarassed her. It's not really something that I can promise not to do again because it's the embarassment that was the problem, not what I asked about. I'm sure I will most certainly embarass her again, and I a certain it will be a different situation. Maybe I'll clumsily walk into a parking meter, or maybe I'm slip on a banana peel, or maybe I'll ask where the bathroom is in front of a bunch of people. I'm not the issue, and neither is what I do. As long as I pretend I am, and I do this by accepting responsibility when she blames me for her feelings, I prevent her from addressing the issue. I'm enabling her denial.
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Obviously what she wants is to lash out and hurt!
Wow! I'm amazed that you're able to deduce with such certainty what my W's intentions were from my limited description of the events. This MAY be the case - I don't personally think so - but thinking that it is will set me up to be really defensive. She's trying to share something, and she's not doing such a great job. I didn't do my part either because I left the situation at my assumptions rather than looking for some clarity or opening up discussion about what she was thinking or feeling. I didn't allow her to connect with me because I assumed that she was trying to blame me, and I was avoiding this. Not an easy place to be. The key to being successful in a relationship is to remain emotionally available. I didn't do my part because I withdrew my emotions in order to keep them out of harms way. If I had verbalized how I felt about her reaction - I wasn't aware of it in the moment, so I didn't, but there was some emotional reaction - I might have been able to share as well and we might have found some better understanding. As it stands, I think she thinks that I thought she was just being a neurotic boob. In some ways I did, and this is not a loving act, but rather I'm reducing her to a label that takes away her humanity. I'm removing my own humanity to do so as well. Unhealthy stuff.
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In my example, W waited to get back to hotel to address it with me as opposed to lashing out in public, this in turn, made me more open to changing my behaviour.
I see what you're getting at here, and it makes sense to me too. I think it's a proactive step to voice her complaint about something specific - in fact she is taking responsibility for her feelings by addressing it this way.
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Your W isn't looking for a solution here, just wants to vent and lash out.
Well, I think she was looking for a solution. Even if it is just venting, that's a solution to the enormous amount of pressure she's under. That a little embarassment could cause her to blow her top shows just how high strung she is. But you're right, she's not looking for relationship solutions, she's looking for immediate solutions to the problems that are occuring on her emotional landscape.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Good point, Muddle. None of us can really know what is going through the mind of another. It is disrespectful to think we do! My apologies to your W I viewed the incident through my emotional screens and my limited knowledge of your situation, you do the same ( with more knowldege) as does she. That's what makes all this so mind boggling. I think it's important that we keep things simple and look for solutions versus analyzing it to death. Otherwise we get mired down in hundreds of possibilities that most likely are untrue anyway but get our emotions chugging on all cylanders. Would it be an option in these situations to go back to her and say "I was thinking about what happened and am wondering if there is another way we could resolve these issues in the future. If you are upset with me could we take a minute to discuss it? I will try to listen and be part of a solution" (or whatever you think works better here) I sometimes found going back to my W after an incident was helpful versus dealing with it while she was in full tilt, these days she's much less open to it but... Just a thought for you to consider. This way you are proactively addressing the way an issue is brought up versus the specific issue e.g. Payless. You know, how do we deal with each other when we are upset versus dealing with each specific incident that comes up.
Yeah, I've tried that. She knows I'm all about trying to create a system that will avoid this sort of problem. She knows I want to solve problems. To her it's all wasted breath. She's got her solution if you know what I mean. Why work on something when it's so temporary?
I've come to the understanding that she has to recognize that there's a problem and address it as such herself. I need to stop trying to fix things that are causing her distress. Just let it all go and up to her to fix if she wants to. I take care of mine, hers is up to her.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, I had the same problem with my W's belief that I should always know what she needed without being told. I was to be a mindreader. It's not a reasonable nor realistic demand to put on anyone but she is emotionally at a point where that's what she wants/needs. That is her issue, I can only try to be respectful and as caring as I can be but, yes, just like your W, it's her issue. It's not like I can sit down and say "How can I read your mind better?" I've tried to discuss things but in her view there is no compromise, I can do it or I can't. I empathize with your sitch!
Well, I ended up picking up flowers and some candy for W. I left it in the living room and let her find it (I was outside shoveling snow) and I didn't get a card. I was sensitive to the fact that she would likely feel mixed feelings about it. When I came inside she got on my case saying "don't you think I would have liked to come home to a clean house after I was working all day?" to which I responded that I had been working too - I didn't have the day off - and Ihad to go out and shovel a couple times. I didn't have the time, but I had picked up a bit.
I stopped in a couple of times and gave her my undivided attention. I listened to her tell me all about work and how she felt about it. I think I judged her a bit too much - even though it was a sincere attempt to help her. She was talking about how incompetent she feels (she's going through orientation now) and how she feels like she doesn't know what to do. She was also frustrated because she was scheduled for full time when she's working part time. I told her that I thought her feelings meant good things for her and that she could use them constructively. Her bad feelings about being scheduled improperly were a call to action - she needs to talk to her boss and get that straightened out. And her feelings of incompetence should drive her to get answered any questions she might have. I was basically trying to convey to her that her emotions are not bad, they are information about how she's feeling - that there are steps she needs to take. Use them constructively, don't judge and condemn yourself for feeling a certain way because you think you shouldn't, or you think it's not normal. She did seem to take this well and I'm pretty sure she saw my point. I felt uncomfortable giving her advice. A bit fearful that I was taking a position above hers (or that she would interpret it this way) and that my doing so would make her uncomfortable and sever the connection we seemed to be experiencing then.
Later in the evening, after I had gone upstairs, she dropped by the room. She told me "I really appreciate the stuff you got me for valentines day. I didn't say anything before because it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. I always have a hard time with it and with things the way they are I feel strange. I wanted to tell you that I do appreciate it though." It was really sincere and nice to hear. I wish she hadn't felt uncomfortable, but it's to be expected. It's nice to be thought of, and I hope she focused on this rather than thinking about how insensitive I am because I got her stuff when she doesn't want to have a relationship like that with me and I just don't get it and I just don't respect her desire to not have anything like this. Blah.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, it's funny but I think when they thank us for something now it is actually more meaningful then when things were "normal" in the R. It takes more for them to do it therefore it has more meaning. I'm glad your W showed that kind of caring for you yesterday. As far as her work issue, it's great that she allowed you to process it with her. One thing I am learning in the counselling courses I am taking is how to help people without giving advice or opinion. It's tough to do but actually helps the individual find an answer that is theirs! Asking things like "what would you like to happen instead?", "how could you make that happen, even just a little bit", "have you ever dealt successfully with this kind of situation in the past? What did you do to make that happen?" and of course, one must validate the others feelings at all times. The beauty of it is you aren't telling people what to do but helping them to steer their own boat! I'm using this with my kids (at times) and my D said she liked doing it because we were talking about the things she was doing right, not the things she was doing wrong! It's called looking for an exception to the problem e.g. even when a person is chronically depressed there are days where they feel a bit better, what is happening on those days? Can those things be repeated? It's difficult to explain the concept in a small post but I thought I'd pass on what I could. I hope it is of some help!
Thanks Whatis, it's actually something straight out of marriage counselling too. The absolutism, which is ALWAYS an exageration, is dysfunctional because it allows for generalizations to take the place of real people and possibilities. Someone who's depressed is likely to take an extremely pessimistic view of the possibilities of future interactions with another person if they believe that the other person ALWAYS responds a certain way. The idea is to get this person to think of an exception - this breaks the absolutist notion that this person will certainly respond the way they are expected to, and they are seen as having a tendency towards a certain behavior or response rather than it being a necessary component to their character.
I think this is why I felt uncomfortable with the advice I gave. It's because I told her rather than allowing her to find the solution herself. I have to say that I was a bit frustrated with her negativity. She was really down on herself, basically saying she felt like she was crazy and incompetent because she had the feelings she did. I wanted her to know that I thought she was normal, her feelings were normal, but her perspective was causing her distress. In doing so I sortof invalidated her because I took a nearly polar opposite perspective, that her feelings were good things to have and that she should listen to them. I don't think she would have come about this way of thinking if I hadn't brought it up. I think she would have obsessed over this all night and stressed herself out to the point where she couldn't sleep, etc.
I'm glad my W showed me caring too. It's tough to guage where we are because I feel like I'm still acting from a position of her husband even though she doesn't want me to, and whenever she's being receptive to me, whenever we have good interactions, I question whether we're getting to a good place as a couple or if she's just glad to have someone to talk to and the wall between us is now too strong for her to allow for more intimacy than we have right now. I think there's real intimacy there, I wonder if she does.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I think the thing to do is just accept the wonderful connection you experienced, even for the moment, and let it go! It was a connection that was made and if it was made once it can be made again! Take care.
I viewed the incident through my emotional screens and my limited knowledge of your situation, you do the same ( with more knowldege) as does she. That's what makes all this so mind boggling. I think it's important that we keep things simple and look for solutions versus analyzing it to death. Otherwise we get mired down in hundreds of possibilities that most likely are untrue anyway but get our emotions chugging on all cylanders. Would it be an option in these situations to go back to her and say "I was thinking about what happened and am wondering if there is another way we could resolve these issues in the future. If you are upset with me could we take a minute to discuss it? I will try to listen and be part of a solution" (or whatever you think works better here) I sometimes found going back to my W after an incident was helpful versus dealing with it while she was in full tilt, these days she's much less open to it but... Just a thought for you to consider. This way you are proactively addressing the way an issue is brought up versus the specific issue e.g. Payless. You know, how do we deal with each other when we are upset versus dealing with each specific incident that comes up.