Heh. What you actually said was that you were "shocked", which is a synonym for "aghast". ;\)
Ouch! I had to go make sure that I had actually used the word shocking! Yep sure enough - done in by my own word. Looking an synonyms, the real word I should have used was surprising because it wasn't really shocking, scandalous, etc. It just surprised me because the men in my family tend to respect mothering abilities. (and note that I did keep the wink. Am I a good person now?) Anyway... I think that we found a point that we both agree on - her "questions" do not need to be answered to her. Notice I didn't recommend talking it out with her either.
I still think it is useful for HD to know why he wants sex once a week. Not because there is anything wrong with that "want". I think it would give him a strength around her if he had that internal knowledge. To me, her comments/questions shows that she doubts that he knows himself. I think it would help him to focus on himself and in turn I think she would sense that he was developing a strength on his own. I think this is to what Blackfoot was referring. That there is an unspoken strength when you truly know yourself and know why you want what you want. Knowing why you want something can help you solve your issue (not that wanting sex is an issue but the there may be an issue behind his thought that sex would bring happiness) AND can set you up to receive what you want in the end.
Here are some quotes that I was going to post to Cemar but I think that HD would be more likely to actually read and absorb their meaning.
"What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him." and
"Again and again I therefore admonish my students in Europe and America: Don't aim at success - the more you aim at it and make it a target, the more you are going to miss it. For success, like happiness, cannot be pursued; it must ensue, and it only does so as the unintended side effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself or as the by-product of one's surrender to a person other than oneself. Happiness must happen, and the same holds for success: you have to let it happen by not caring about it. I want you to listen to what your conscience commands you to do and go on to carry it out to the best of your knowledge. Then you will live to see that in the long-run - in the long-run, I say! - success will follow you precisely because you had forgotten to think about it." Victor Frankl Holocaust survivor and author of "Man's Search for Meaning"
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Sorry, but the "correct" answer she wants to hear is "you are right. I am grasping for happiness by seeking something from you. I need to seek my Buddha nature and meditate. Only when I stop seeking, will I find true happiness."
I don't think you're "hearing" what I am trying to say.
You shouldn't answer her!!! Whether it was a direct or indirect question, whether you have the answer she wants or not, it doesn't matter about her! Who cares what answer she wants to hear? Of course she is deflecting. Do you really believe that she is any stronger than you? She is an avoider as much as you are she just uses different techniques for her own personal issues.
For me personally I am interesting in what the answer is for you and for your soul. Actually I don't care if you tell me, I just care that you know. What is your deepest truth about yourself and what you are seeking? WHile I agree that seeking happiness isn't the way to happiness, I do think you should be seeking something - truth, knowledge, strength, whatever.
Sorry if this was too strong. I just felt like my main point wasn't heard. Again I truly think it is a "cheeseless tunnel" (to quote a book that I personally hated, abhorred, despised,loathed and any other synonym) to pursue this conversation with her. This is about you.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
That is so funny Burg because I was going to post something about that on your thread when you were relaying a situation that played out with you and Steff with the chips out of the bag thing. The way you justified eating chips out of the bag with playing in the wheat as a kid and therefore she should avoid flour products too was nothing short of hilarious.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I've been following hd's story since I joined this board in September 2004. Mrs. HD is a very tough nut to crack. Ordinary methods do not work on her. She is a family law lawyer and hears stories of how awful men are from her clients. Plus she is the kind of ball crushing feminist that gives rational, sensible women a bad name. Hairdog KNOWS whom he is dealing with. He is not running, and he is not hiding or deflecting.
Mrs. HD is a fog machine... she smothers him with wordswordswords mixed with anger, lashing out, bs-- it's not that she is evil-- she is VERY afraid.
Hairdog has talked, explained, given in, argued, debated, confronted, persuaded--- and NONE of that has worked. What he hasn't tried in the past is a simple request FOLLOWED BY SILENCE.
Picking something simple like sex once a week and sticking to that "want" is like shining a laser beam through the fog. It wouldn't have to be sex; he might be saying he wants them to have dinner together once a week... the content of the "want" itself is not that important (except that it has to be something he really does want and of course, that sex is a hot issue for Mrs. hd who has nothing but contempt for people's sexual urges-- women's as well as men's). He does not have to justify this want.
When he states the want and she responds with fog, illogic, accusations, Buddhist quotations, etc. -- don't y'all see: ALL of that is coming from her, and when he does not reply, it's CLEAR that all of it is coming from her. THAT'S what being in the crucible is all about. You turn up the heat on yourself.
When hairdog states his want, SHE makes HERSELF miserable with all of her bluster, flapping, and flailing. If he gets into a convo with her about it, she turns the blame on him. When he is mostly silent, there is no fight and she has a harder time blaming him.
What hairdog gets is to see clearly that HE is not causing her flailing. He gets his integrity. He stated a want, and she went ballistic. ANY explanation that he adds to his want is like spots on a clear windowpane-- it obscures the view.
Lil I just think we can never really know MrsHD just from what HD tells us. Not that I don't trust your words HD but you obviously have your own perspective, we all do. Lil, just as you are fascinated by people's resistence you what you are saying, I am quite fascinated by your self-assurance on this issue. Actually, that is not the case, because you yourself admitted you didn't think doing this would work for HD. So why do it then? I get your points on integrity. Yes, HD will fell better about himself if he states his needs. That still will not fix the problem. I stated for YEARS my needs and we went in circles until the bomb. How do you know that this tactic will not drive MrsHD running? Seems kind of obnxious to keep stating the Want over and over when she clearly states her response. I see myself in some of that and cringe at some of my previous actions. I highly doubt it is going to make the M or the SL any better.
And now in the words of HD, LFL has left the building.
LFL, the only thing I feel sure about is that this is something different to try.
When you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got. So if you want change, do ANYTHING different.
You said you stated your wants for years and y'all "went in circles." They aren't going in circles, because he isn't discussing it, just stating it. If you don't run, there can't be any running in circles.
Like I said I haven't read his sitch and know nothing about HD's wife. Since there are a bunch of posts today, I wanted to see if you were directing any of your comments to me because I think we actually agree very much. And I don't think I've mentioned in any of my posts that I'm resistant to anything he's done or is doing. I'm trying to understand his issues a bit more.
I definitely don't think that having a conversation with his wife will help any of this (I've repeated this so much I'm sure everyone is sick of it). Funny that his wife is an attorney since my xH was an attorney also. And that is a frustrating talent of an attorney; that they can argue and win arguments, which is another reason why talking won't work. They are so good at putting you on the defensive and making you prove yourself that it's very easy to get trapped because hey, we don't do this for a living! I went into an argument/discussion assuming we were on a level playing field where the relationship and each other's feelings were most important. Not whether I word smithed every sentence to lead to a rock solid defense of my "side". Even in the Good Old Days of our marriage I would say seriously that I wanted to go to law school just so I could learn to win an argument with him. But I digress...
Quote:
Picking something simple like sex once a week and sticking to that "want" is like shining a laser beam through the fog. It wouldn't have to be sex; he might be saying he wants them to have dinner together once a week... the content of the "want" itself is not that important (except that it has to be something he really does want and of course, that sex is a hot issue for Mrs. hd who has nothing but contempt for people's sexual urges-- women's as well as men's). He does not have to justify this want.
This quote is EXACTLY my question. Does this really describe what HD wants? Then I would see his want to have sex 1x per week as a way of seeing that his wants and feelings are cared for or accepted by his wife. Again, just supposing this is true (and by no means would I assume that) wouldn't it do HD some good to think about this need to be cared for and accepted? (Hey FWIW this happens to be my actual need in a relationship)
And to be clear if this is true for HD, I wouldn't share it with Ms HD any time soon. Also I'm not talking about justifying it. That's why I wouldn't talk to Ms HD about it because that's what an attorney does - they want justification. I'm talking about taking that knowledge and really working with it to understand yourself better. These are the kinds of questions that I would ponder.
Does Ms HD do ANYTHING that could be perceived as her way of trying to care for HD?
What if he could accept short term that she is incapable of meeting his need for caring and acceptance because maybe she doesn't feel that for herself?
What if he looked for something to ask from her that could give him some feeling of being cared for or accepted that wasn't a hot button issue for her?
What if he looked at himself and really considered whether he feels caring and acceptance toward himself?
I've tried to read some past HD posts and I thought I saw one about HD enjoying his daughter's gymnastics because he had time for himself and the other about not getting a massage because it was too emotional. Both instances say to me that this is a person that needs to care for himself. Again my own personal experience is similar.
Also he could investigate "all" he does for her. Are his actions really all for her or is it a way for him to feel like he is doing all the work so she is the one that "owes" him?
These are thoughts on this general subject and in no way am I implying that they are true for HD. Please notice that in no way are any of these questions about justifying his want. They are only about understanding the want better for HD not for his wife.
Again by no means do I think that any of these things I mention are the "answer". Just trying to look at things from an angle where HD does have total control. Within himself.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
HD, I have been reading your thread. Some things are the same some are different in my R with BB.
I was going around and around till I got to the point of which choice I had infront of me was almost equally not want I wanted.
In pops choice #4, not anything I had in mind in the first place.
Choice #4 was detaching more. Choice #4 was OK, BB gets what she threatens to do or tells me what she wants. I got to the point of saying to BB, go do it, I won't be doing it with you.
I don't know if this applies to your situation, but what does your W want from the M, aside from cooking, cleaning, paying for things, and what ever else goes on in your house?
I ask this because I believe everyone wants something from a R, but is what she wants realistic? Once I decided I couldn't give BB what she wanted, and I sort of gave up trying to get what I wanted, that is when I knew I would be OK with her or without BB. After a while, the R got a little better.
I am only suggesting, that to appear to want something, sometimes causes the owner of that thing to up the anty in the trading process, that is unless the OP wants something you have.
I don't like power plays, don't use them in R's, but here I am faced with the playing out of actions or inactions in our R.
Back to, what does your W want, need from you in your M? Are some of her feminist beliefs really a covered-up version of paying for one item but expecting two items?
What helped me a little was to put some of the "Dog Whisphers" lessons to heart You are deserving of some things (own your space/position in the family and R) be considtant, don't give up/in if the going gets tough, be the leader that you need to be, to get the job done. If she doesn't want many of the same goals as you do, then M life will be difficult.
Too many random thoughts so I will hang up for now.
Fearless Victor Frankl Holocaust survivor and author of "Man's Search for Meaning" Good book.
"I want what I want" WTG HD.
Ms. HD "Why do you want it" HD, some people just don't see or get the need for sex in a R. Maybe I read too many other forums, but there are people that think sex is not necessary in a M. It works when two people agree.
