LFL, one other thought-- don't forget these two have been in MC together for a considerable time... was it a year or almost a year? I believe they quit going together when it became clear that it wasn't doing one thing toward budging Mrs. HD off her self-righteous, armored high horse. And even though the problems go deeper, hd has said the M would be tolerable if there were more sex.
I believe hd cannot go into any convo expecting his W to agree with him that there are issues, allow herself to be persuaded that his concerns are valid, or even allow that his desire for regular sex is the least bit reasonable.
Exactly. So why would she just agree to the sex? She hasn't shown any willingneess to "just do it" yet so why would she start now? Because Hairdog says he wants it?
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My suggestion is that he request a behavioral change. Something visible, tangible, measurable. AND that he not explain, discuss, defend, or in any way try to justify it.
I am all for behavioral changes. I'm not so sure how successful that would be without some of of what you wrote after AND though. Might work with some but Mrs. HD seems like a tough cookie and I doubt she is going to comply.
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A while ago, Mrs. HD in a softer moment, said to HD that she was going to try to be a "better wife."
So? Could just be deflection. People say things all the time they don't mean. You mentioned HD and his W have been going to counseling for a while, again I say, so? That could also be used as a means of deflection and avoidance. My H was a pro at that. Jumping through all the seemingly correct "hoops" and never really speaking honestly.
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Not to reduce the issues to "more sex," but to lure her into a place where it is clear to both of them simultaneously that she is not willing to do the SIMPLEST thing to make him happy.
Isn't that evident already? Hairdog has been on this board for years. What has really changed? Seems like he is just continuing to do the same things that are not working. I think the ONLY thing that will work is for Hairdog to deal with his major AVOIDANCE, whichever way that will work for him. None of us know what that is. Hairdog is a very likable guy as many people on this board have said. That doesn't mean he is going to be the best H. I hope I am not coming off too harsh Hairdog but I really think you need to concentrate more on your role in this M and less on how awful your W is.
It was turning out to be one of those usual nights at home, camped in front of the tv, DD5 in bed. W: You know, it's nice when you snuggle up to me in the morning, but sticking your penis in my azz and grabbing my boob doesn't work for me. I don't like that. [note: although there are moments when morning wood comes into contact with her buns, there is no "sticking" going on, no anal, no nothing] H: I understand. I would like us to start making love again. W: (rolling eyes) Not that again. I thought you had given that up. [Odd statement. I told her many months ago that I had given up initiating, I later said that I would continue to initiate -- and each time after that, I was met with a firm rejection.] H: In fact, I want to make love once a week. W: (mouth open in shock, rolling eyes) Well, that's never going to happen.
Thereafter, silence ensued. She went upstairs to bed after the 9pm show ended, and I followed. Silence in bed, to my telling her "good night."
During the middle of the night, she spooned up behind me and hugged me for a bit.
This morning, (schools canceled because of snow, I decided to stay home with DD5)she came into the kitchen and said: W: When you say things like you did last night, it's pressure. I don't like pressure. H: I understand. I want to make love with you, once a week. W: (getting loud)Well, I want a million dollars. I want to live in the country. I don't want to live in this city. I want you to not lie to me. I really feel like we've been close these last few weeks, and then you lied to me about x (reference to what I'd characterize as an omission - I'd had to take DD5 with me in the car to go pick up my older kids from my ex-wife's house. W doesn't like me going over there with DD5 because ex has come to the car and yelled at me in front of her, causing some anxiety. I'd done it this one day because I'd forgotten W's preference, and, in the midst of telling her about a convo with my kids in the car, she asked about the incident, which suddenly became the focus of the conversation. I never did get to tell her about what I'd wanted to tell her. Suddenly it was about me taking DD5 over to ex's house, and how I hadn't told her that, and how that was me lying to her.)
W: You know, whether you and I ML is within your control. H: Not really. W: Just talk with me. Don't pressure me. Don't make sexual demands of me. Don't quantify it. H: Quantify? W: Yes. The "once a week." It's quantifying. We're back where we started now. You keeping track. And what happens if we don't have sex once a week? H: I guess we'll just see. W: That's just a threat. You know, I stuck it out, after your lies to me. I'm still here. I think we're doing okay, and then you start pressuring me for sex. Telling me we're going to have sex once a week, or else, is not the way to get me interested in sex. H: That's not what I said. I said that I wanted to ML once a week. W: I wish you could figure out why this is so important to you. I wish you could figure out why you think this is going to make you happy.
I just looked at her. While her voice got loud and shrill, I was calm, and, when I did talk, it was measured and clear.
And then the convo ended. She did her morning exercises. She went upstairs to get ready for work. Later, I joined her. We talked about an interesting client of hers. It was almost normal.
We kissed goodbye and, maybe it was my imagination, but I think she held the hug for a fraction longer than she normally did.
That's the news from snow day central.
And LFL, I really am as wonderful as you can imagine.
Ya know hairdog...I just read your post about being chickening out etc. You mentioned how this DB/SSM stuff was spinning in your head when you did that. One of the reasons I avoid this site is that "living in the moment" is really hard when your goals and hopes are in the forefront. It makes it almost impossible to NOT let your mind go into thoughts like "when will this change? when will she change? are we getting divorced someday over this? we need to talk. I need to do this or that" etc. etc.
Focusing on an goal that can only be achieved through another person's efforts, even if it's a miniscule amount, means that we are paying more attention to them than ourselves.
I wouldn't use that situation as an entree to a discussion. If she's tired, then she's tired. My in-the-moment thought for that type of response is "what a dud". Sometimes the intellectual approach is best substituted with a judgmental one.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Hairy, Good job. Might help to add an "I'm no longer willing to live in a sexless marriage, and I'd prefer it to be with you. Whether or not is is with you is within your control. " next time it comes up. Oh, and make sure it keeps coming up as reliably as mornin' wood; don't let this fade to the background again. I feel for you man, she's a tough case. Have you asked her why she seems to dislike sex so much? Seems she is holding it back as a treat for extraordinarily good deeds on your part or something. I bet the crack of Dawn is starting to look really good to you
Might help to add an "I'm no longer willing to live in a sexless marriage, and I'd prefer it to be with you. Whether or not is is with you is within your control. " next time it comes up.
I would advise against this, as this turns it into a threat, AND allows her fodder for distraction. Keep it clean and sharp, like the point of a needle (or scalpel).
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Have you asked her why she seems to dislike sex so much?
Again... material for distraction.
Keep her ON task, ON message, ON point. Like forcing her down a funnel... or into one of those pens where they corral cattle. (Bad image.)
HD, how did you feel during these transactions? Fear? Anxiety? Nervousness?
Did she react as strongly as you FEARED she would?
Hey GGB (and hi to you Dave) This whole "I was feeling closer to you and felt like making love" thing that she said this morning was a familiar old saw of hers. It follows the "it's within your control" statement. "Look how close you were to getting what you want. But then you had to go and screw it up."
It's not working on me anymore. Whether or not I tell her every little thing that goes on in my day, or whether or not I spend x hours cleaning a week, or whether or not I make her the right kind of cake, or whether or not I remember everything she tells me to do every single day, well, I still deserve her love, her respect, and to have my wants taken seriously.
And I think she will flail around some more as the days go by, and I will let her flail. Pretty soon, she's got to realize that it's time for the next phase of this marriage.
She reacted about how I expected her to. Mostly angry. The hug in the middle of the night was a bit unexpected, but I just tried to enjoy it and not overanalyze.
How did I feel? Yes, I was a bit anxious. But when I actually said it, which was kind of a response to her crude comment, it just flowed. I look back and see that I still avoided bringing it all up on my own. But I got it out. It's out there. And now, tonight, or tomorrow, it will be easier to say. And I will say it. I'm going to say it every day. In fact, I was thinking this morning of basically saying that she has until next Monday night to either "fish or cut bait."
And I was also thinking along the lines of a positive "I'm excited about this next phase of our marriage" way of looking at this, and saying that to her when she asks what the heck I think I'm doing to our marriage.
Hairdog, You have come such a long way in the short time you've returned to the board. I hope you get the sex, but more importantly, I sense you have empowered yourself by taking this challenge on again. I am happy for you.
