What has he done or said that makes you think he is open to hearing ideas about the other side, so to speak? If he is not ready to go to joint counseling have you suggested individual counseling? Do you have children? I ask because my H said that one of the things I said to him make him really sit down and think...it came up one day when I had made it clear to him that I was open to talking about a reconciliation and he asked me why would I want him as a husband... I told him that I did for two reasons.. first I had made a choice when we married and I stood by my choise and second that I knew that I had a long term obligation and committment to our children and that I kept myself open to reconciliation as I knew that I could one day look the kids in the eyes and tell them that I had done everything that I possibly could to reconcile things... that I had a clear conscious with respect to being opne to the idea of putting things back together again. He said that really ate away at him and that he really chewed on that and it was a major reason for trying again on his part.
Also, if your H is really open to discussions.. you need to stay away from it as it may be too soon for you guys and you could slip into a bad OR talk.. instead ask him if he wants information.. if he seems open to it then get him book on recovery from an affair.. get him Michelle's book.. if he is not a reader.. get him books on tape or videos. The other thing my h said to me was that he had doubts about it being possible to reconcile.. so reading some of those books that have possitive examples of recovery was helpful to him.. it made him see that it was possible. Good luck P.S. unless he is being really clear about his desire for info.. try not to be too upset if he rebuffs your attempts at giving him info... and remember he might perceive you as being desparate in someway as opposed to trying to just be helpful.. so it is a fine line be sure you protect yourself.
my e-mail address is: luckybub57@hotmail.com I explained to my h that I read something on the internet that I felt applied to us or rather to me about us. He said he wanted a copy of it. I read it to him and then he asked if he could keep the copy and that it sounded right. This is something he would never do before. It is very hard to stay away from or talks. I do continue to tell him I still care for him and really miss him (needy - sure am but he has seen I have been pretty independent these past weeks since he left). Which book are you talking about from Michelle? I know we are not supposed to put guilt on them for they already feel guilty - wouldn't the comment about the kids do that? I do like what you said and it is my belief also. I am desperate but am really working hard at being helpful. H has commented that he is not happier since he left he is worse. He said he has not found himself (another lost soul). I know I have to be his friend and it is pretty had not to feel sorry for him - depression is still lurking there. So is the ow (the sl_t). Sorry had to get that in there.
quote:Originally posted by gbon: Justifying an affair...
I believe this involves putting yourself in your spouses shoes for a moment.
The spouse who starts an affair has typically been deprived of their basic relationship needs. These could be attention, affection, conversation (the big three for people who start affairs), etc...
These needs are often different from the needs of the spouse who is being cheated on. Take note that most people's needs change in some way with time. Thus the beginning of problems. The cheated on spouse has probably been trying to fulfill the needs of their significant other, but using the needs that they feel are important, not important to their SO.
Imagine, if you will, being neglected, ignored, verbally abused, etc... for many months or even years by your spouse. You start to long for attention and respect from your spouse, but it never happens (well, occasionally, but not consistently). So you start to withdraw. Over time, the urges to have your needs met become stronger and stronger. Then... you notice the guy/girl you work with seems to be fulfilling your unmet needs through basic conversation. Soon, your conversations start involving your personal life (marriage, dreams, expectations). Wow, you find that this other guy/girl not only listens to you when you talk, but they seem interested as well. You start to compare this person to your spouse, who by now has become a villian in your mind. Not knowing this new person as well as your spouse, you put them on a pedastal, they can do no wrong in your eyes. You start to fantasize about being with this person. This marks the beginning of an emotional affair.
Now that you've experienced a little bit of joy and happiness by spending time with this other person, you wonder why you ever married your spouse in the first place. Now you really shut down towards your spouse. You wonder how you could possibly be in love with your spouse when you have strong feelings for this new, exciting (and I emphasize the NEW and EXCITING) person and relationship. You begin to convince yourself that you have a natural born right to be happy (which by the way, you do) and you must do whatever is necessary to achieve this happiness. The quest for happiness is a very POWERFUL force that causes people to become "takers" instead of "givers". So, you start to take more than you give, which includes continuing your inappropriate (inappropriate meaning that your intentions are not of moral standards) relationship with the new person that seems to be fulfilling your needs (not all of them mind you) and making you happy. JUSTIFICATION #1: After all, what's wrong with being happy? So, you decide, if you haven't already, that you are going to exit your current relationship with your spouse (either emotionally, physically, or both) and make a go of being with this new person. JUSTIFICATION #2: After all, what's wrong with being with this new person when your relationship with your existing spouse is dead?
So, your spouse finds out that you're seeing someone else (CHEATING) and they cry, beg, plead, call you names, blame you for the breakup of their family, etc... You now think to yourself, damn, I've made the right decision to leave my spouse, look at the way they're acting. I don't want to live the rest of my life with that person. JUSTIFICATION #3: After all, they are not only out of control, but they want to control my life as well.
There are more justifications, but these three seem to be the most common.
Of course I'm not condoning their decision to have an affair, but I do understand why.
Greg
[This message has been edited by gbon (edited 05-02-2001).]
I just want to thank you for understanding that when someone has an affair there is always a reason behind it, and that we are not terrible home wrecking monsters. I appreciate how you are able to put in to words the circumstances that lead up to an affair, and the feelings that go with them.
quote:Originally posted by gbon: Justifying an affair...
I believe this involves putting yourself in your spouses shoes for a moment.
The spouse who starts an affair has typically been deprived of their basic relationship needs. These could be attention, affection, conversation (the big three for people who start affairs), etc...
These needs are often different from the needs of the spouse who is being cheated on. Take note that most people's needs change in some way with time. Thus the beginning of problems. The cheated on spouse has probably been trying to fulfill the needs of their significant other, but using the needs that they feel are important, not important to their SO.
Imagine, if you will, being neglected, ignored, verbally abused, etc... for many months or even years by your spouse. You start to long for attention and respect from your spouse, but it never happens (well, occasionally, but not consistently). So you start to withdraw. Over time, the urges to have your needs met become stronger and stronger. Then... you notice the guy/girl you work with seems to be fulfilling your unmet needs through basic conversation. Soon, your conversations start involving your personal life (marriage, dreams, expectations). Wow, you find that this other guy/girl not only listens to you when you talk, but they seem interested as well. You start to compare this person to your spouse, who by now has become a villian in your mind. Not knowing this new person as well as your spouse, you put them on a pedastal, they can do no wrong in your eyes. You start to fantasize about being with this person. This marks the beginning of an emotional affair.
Now that you've experienced a little bit of joy and happiness by spending time with this other person, you wonder why you ever married your spouse in the first place. Now you really shut down towards your spouse. You wonder how you could possibly be in love with your spouse when you have strong feelings for this new, exciting (and I emphasize the NEW and EXCITING) person and relationship. You begin to convince yourself that you have a natural born right to be happy (which by the way, you do) and you must do whatever is necessary to achieve this happiness. The quest for happiness is a very POWERFUL force that causes people to become "takers" instead of "givers". So, you start to take more than you give, which includes continuing your inappropriate (inappropriate meaning that your intentions are not of moral standards) relationship with the new person that seems to be fulfilling your needs (not all of them mind you) and making you happy. JUSTIFICATION #1: After all, what's wrong with being happy? So, you decide, if you haven't already, that you are going to exit your current relationship with your spouse (either emotionally, physically, or both) and make a go of being with this new person. JUSTIFICATION #2: After all, what's wrong with being with this new person when your relationship with your existing spouse is dead?
So, your spouse finds out that you're seeing someone else (CHEATING) and they cry, beg, plead, call you names, blame you for the breakup of their family, etc... You now think to yourself, damn, I've made the right decision to leave my spouse, look at the way they're acting. I don't want to live the rest of my life with that person. JUSTIFICATION #3: After all, they are not only out of control, but they want to control my life as well.
There are more justifications, but these three seem to be the most common.
Of course I'm not condoning their decision to have an affair, but I do understand why.
Greg
[This message has been edited by gbon (edited 05-02-2001).]
"I just want to thank you for understanding that when someone has an affair there is always a reason behind it, and that we are not terrible home wrecking monsters. I appreciate how you are able to put in to words the circumstances that lead up to an affair, and the feelings that go with them."
This makes me anxious...before I would have said angry-but I've moved on to the anxious stage now. So as to not re-write my marathon postings from earlier on this thread-you can go up and read.(or re-read as is probably the case...?)
I really wanted to blame the OW in my case, but she did not know my H was married. So how can I blame her? I do not. I was pleasently surprised to receive a reply from her when I dropped the bomb on her in an email and told her the truth, she had emailed H months before asking why she had not heard from him-so I replied and TOLD her why, and I wasn't very nice about it either. I also told her that she ruined mine and my kids' lives, which of course she did not and I regret having said that. She apologized to me profusely.
I do not think she is a terrible monster or a home wrecker. She actually sounded like a nice person, one I could get along with, well, under way different circumstances of course.
Would I feel differently if she did know he was married and she just didn't care and carried on with him anyway? Maybe, probably, I imagine I would. I do not assume I know how I will react to any given situation any more.
You say there is always a reason for having an A. I don't think so, at least my H certainly disagrees with you. He STILL says 'he doesn't know why' he did it. Of course, I have not asked in a long time....
I think there are a compilation of reasons. Obviously not just one clear cut-simple-black and white REASON. And, for some reason he is still unwilling and/or unable to face them and tell me.
I have to believe that he will tell me when he can, after he has made his own peace with it. I think I am starting to understand how it all led to his A...I know what part in I played, and what things I did to contribute to it...but I really did not think he was in 'such a bad place' and certainly never thought he was headed down that road. I was pretty naive, huh.
Course, he could still be lying to me, and not telling me in order to not hurt me, but that in itself is ridiculous....HURT me?! A bit too late for that, huh!! (sorry, sick humor, I know)
Thanks again for your input, it's nice to hear all sides of this issue...and I have found that putting myself in his shoes, albeit having to make up some of the ways he was feeling (cuz he says 'I don't know') has helped me tremendously.
Amelia: It sounds as if you have been the one who has had an affair.... I would appreciate your input here....ok, you were unhappy about something... at the "right" time you meet someone you are attracted to an affair "happens..." I can understand and believe that things get carried away.. are not intended....I can understand that you feel bad about the fact that your happiness with someone else is causing your spouse pain... now you tell your spouse you are leaving.. you are in the process of the separation and the divorce and all of a sudden, you are not sooo sorry anymore.. your desire to help the injured spouse is all dried up and you develope a "go to hell" attitude and act as if you were totally justified to have the affair... why the switch in attitude? That is what I want to undertand!
I mean don't you understand the pain your actions have caused to those left behind and that some of that pain could have been avoided? For those who use the affair to end the marriage.. why do it that way.. why not end the marriage and then hook up with whoever? Assuming that events just overtake you.. ok, you have a spouse and children who are now dealing with the repercussions of your choice to leave.... notice it is YOUR choice.. not our choice... the fact that your unilateral choice is severly altering several lives (don't forget about the impact on family members as well).. well that should at least make you feel bad.. and I know that when my I know my actions have hurt someone.. whether it was by accident or as a result of a moment of anger .. that I feel bad about that and try to make it up to them.....but my H doesn't seem to have that attitude at all... he said he was sorry in the beginning.. but I never felt tlike he was sincere at all... how sincere is someone who says they are sorry and then ignores everything you ask them to do that would be helpful to you in terms of adjusting? How sincere is someone in saying they are sorry they hurt you when at the same time thye won't tell you why.. they won't even try counseling and they tell you they are sooo happy now that they have decided and promptly and without any looking back move out within days of dropping the bomb on you? I do not think that all people who have an affair are bad people.. I do agree they are unhappy about something.. and often they have legitimate cause... but how can they continue to pursue what they want, disrupting their children's lives, breaking marriage vows and refusing counsleing... why won't they give it that one last try with professional guidance in that last ditch effort? Why do they have the right to put their happiness above that of the family unit, not to mention against that of the individual members of that family? I am still struggling for answers.. and I like hearing from someone who has "strayed.. " even divorced.. it gives me perspective... thanks.
i just wanted to post as someone who has been there and cheated on their spouse. i know from experience that there may have not been any reasons. i had an A a few years ago. the reason that i did it: peer pressure. wanted to be more like the guys that i was hanging out with. my W was a wonderful woman. she was pregnant. i was stupid. very stupid. if i only knew then what i know now. of course, most of those who live by the sword, die by the sword. this past year, my W had an affair. the pain that i felt from it was overwhelming even though i had done it a few years earlier.
me2, you mention that you have grown closer to God since all of this has happened. quit focusing on the A and focus on complete and total forgiveness. you need to trust in the Lord to heal you and your H.
I just discovered that my H has gotten involved with his secretary. Oh how special that is, as I used to call to check in every day at 1:00 to see how his day was, etc. and she would answer and would be SO pleasant. Come to find out about 8 months or so ago, SHE was telling HIM how lucky I was that I was married to him - well, lets' blow smoke up that guys' behind and see how much he smiles!
The reality is - I was TOO good to my h; I took care of it all; I tried to listen to him about his job, etc. -but he RARELY talked about anything emotional; in fact, I don't think he can have emotions or maybe is just uncovering some from his childhood - hence a MLC. He would not talk about us, his feelings or anything about the marriage and even the kids were a pain to him and treated all of us as second class citizens. He not only mistreated US, but thinks her shooting him in the eye with a rubber binder was funny - now if it would have been one of us, we would have gotten a 30 minute lecture on how dangerous that is. Let's see, then he takes our new motorcycle into work last fall (the one that I spent hours tracking down and using special friends' to get a discount on the damn thing) and gives the bimbo a ride on it - OUR motorcycle - yet if I would take a male in my car to lunch he would have had a fit...DOUBLE STANDARDS or LOOSE MORALS??? Neither, my h was the most faithful man ever - in fact, when I found out about him going to a nightclub w/work related visitors (designated driver)- he was very concerned about my feelings and told me that "he had everything right here that he ever wanted" and that it was nothing more than driving these guys there. I believed him then and know that that is my REAL husband.
Wouldn't you say that some folks are just a reject in this department - and if so, why do I have to bear the brunt of his rejection of not only himself, but our beautiful kids too. In my opinion, there is NO EXCUSE for an affair.
What you said about your H sounds like what I used to say/think about mine...about being SOOO faithful and telling you that 'everything I want is here with you'...really hard to believe in that after they go and screw around, I know. I am sorry he has put you and your kids through this...I hope he is able to GROW UP and see how stupid he is.
I appreciate what you said, Trent, about reasons for the A - my H contends he doesn't know. I believe him. He is so afraid of opening up to himself, me, C or anyone and because he cannot get it straight in his own head and I am realizing it may never be resolved for me (to my satisfaction). This is where trust must come into play, not only trust of my H (which in itself will take a long time to be somewhat restored), but also trust of myself and our marriage, but most of all my renewed trust in God.
There is NO excuse for an affair; I think we can all agree with this. As far as simply being a reject, well I refuse to believe that I or any other hurt spouse out there is a 'reject' because after all, our spouses married us and they were not forced to do so. It is only through their own inadequacies that they 'reject' us, which is actually a rejection of themselves (which is what you were saying Phyllis) ...but in turn, we-the spouses and families-feel the brunt of their 'rejection' of themselves.
Sucks...huh. But I sometimes wonder who has it harder, of my H and I...see, I am able to look inside myself and see ME and understand, for the most part, what makes me tick-and WHO I am...he cannot, he hides from himself and refuses (at least for now) to open up. It must be terribly frightening for him, for anyone, not to be able to really look and SEE themselves.
I agree that they (the adulterers) do not really look in at themselves..I think they avoid seeing what they have done and the pain they have caused..afterall having an affair as a way to exit a marriage is a way of running.. and they keep on running. My H is so angry and bitter towards me you would think that I was the one who had the affair....it is very bizarre. Currently he is on a bid to have his gf accepted by the family.. his mom refuses to even meet her and it is really pissing him off. So now he is throwing the gf in my face all the time... you know is it too much to ask...move on with your life. but leave me out of it? Don't shove the existence of your Gf and her participation in your life in my face.. I do not want to see her...it hurts to have that constant reminder.. so just leave her at home...! I know that he is having a hard time.. no one really approves of his gf for him...but all of their disapproval is making him cling even more to her... kind of like a kid huh? reversal psychology? oh well he is regressing and I have to grow up and be the adult!
