Yeah, that party sounds good. I'd prefer something more lethal than a shovel, though. How about an ICBM?
Oh, boy. I actually have a bit of sense of humor today. Maybe my batteries aren't dead yet.
I actually do quite a bit to "recharge" the energy banks. I exercise, read a lot, and listen to music - and that's when I'm not working, which keeps me pretty grounded.
I've also spent a lot of time praying. I think it has helped me feel stronger, or at least today it has.
I've talked to a coach, but she couldn't really say much to me other than to suggest I exercice more. As far as she could see (in a short conversation, really), I was doing things pretty well. I suppose the advice to take care of myself was also meant to counter my overwhelming sense of responsibility for her moods.
You pointed out 'distancing' - yeah, I'm trying to work on that psychologically right now. Because of our living proximity, physical distance is pretty tough, but I've been getting better at accepting the fact that I cannot do much to help, save, control, guide, influence.... my W. She has to do it on her own.
The last time she flipped back to the OM, I used some of that "distance" to deal with getting kicked in the teeth again. I managed to tell her that she had to guide her own life, but did add that even though I respected her freedom, I couldn't agree with her choice.
Now I don't know what the hell she's thinking, and I'm trying not to get worked up about it.
I feel decent - she's recognized my support and has even thanked me for it. That's not to say that I don't fantasize about having the OM drawn and quartered. But she is a big girl, as screwed up as her emotions are right now, and she has to deal with her life as she sees fit.
Now just wait until tomorrow, when all of this progress gets sucked up in a cyclone and shot down to hell.
I don't know if I have posted to you or not. Walkingback asked me to stop by to see if there is anything I could offer you in the way of help. I apologize that I don't have time to go back over your entire sitch but I read the last few pages and thing I get the gist.
Actually, reading your story scares the hell out of me because there are similarities to mine except that my W has yet to go back to saying she loves the OM (and shows very little sign of doing so anytime soon) but she did say something like that a few weeks ago. Like you, I was sure all that was in the past and I would never have to hear that kind of thing again.
One thing my W shared with me that may help you understand where your W's head's at is the fact that to this day, 6+ months after they supposedly broke things off, he's still calling her. He's still professing his undying love for her and telling/reminding her that she's screwing up her life by staying with me. She says even though she's pretty clear in her mind she's done with him, and told him this, it still hurts her to remember where she was not too long ago.
Of course, she told me all the same "bad things" about her OM that your W told you about hers but still seems to have a soft spot for him. I think this is because they perceive these guys as the ones who were there for them in their time of need. The OM still represents a certain freedom and promise of a new, better life. We still, at least in some ways, represent the old, unchanging, "bad" life they feel trapped into.
So, my W was on that fence not too long ago, put there by listening to a message from OM (or at least she said it was just a message...and one actual conversation soon after) but she seems to have chosen to come back to my side...this time.
I am afraid sometimes, like you, that she'll not make that same choice next time but hey, I can't control that. I can only keep working on me and she makes her mind up from there.
Granted, my sitch is a bit better off than yours (sorry) but the fear, the not knowing part is still there. I think that's one of the lessons in all this; you NEVER know, which is why you can't put all your "happiness"-eggs in her basket. You have to learn to carry some, if not all the burden for your happiness in this life on your own. That way no matter what she does, you will not walk away a shell of a man, left with nothing, inside or out.
You HAVE to begin the process of emotionally distancing yourself from her, detaching from this wild swing of emotion that she's going through.
My W has a constant refrain she uses with me that goes something like; "You don't know what it's like. You don't know how hard this is."
Sure, we laugh until we pee ourselves at a WAS saying something like that, but I assure you, as bad as we have it, I honestly do think we have it better. We only have one set of feelings, one other person to deal with in this. Our arguments, decisions, actions, etc, are only seen and reacted to by one person. Theirs are reacted to and judged by two people, usually in diametrically opposite ways. No matter WHAT your W does, someone will be pissed, probably VERY emotional, and for someone who is very tuned in to emotions right now, not to mention being a woman (sorry ladies), that can be a very tough place to be...albeit one entirely self-created and not deserving of our pity.
Pity is one thing, understanding and compassion are another and that's where you can do some work. Try to stop putting yourself, her and OM into the roles of good and evil and understand that it's a terribly complicated situation who's moral rightness or wrongness is entirely dependant on who you are in the equation.
I'm SURE my W's OM, probably based largely on what she's told him, believes he's actually trying to save my W from a living hell in our marriage. HE thinks I am the one who's evil...of course, he's wrong, lol.
All I am trying to say is that one of the largest hurdles I had to overcome in all this was the assigning of blame and labels to all of this. He's evil, she's a b!tch, I'm an a$$hole, I'm great, she's bad, he's demented, she's crazy...
Pick yourself up, stop trying to figure her out and start living your life with a purpose. Make that purpose to grow yourself beyond the description your marriage has provided you with. Grow beyond being just a husband, father, son, etc and into the man you really want to be.
I will try to keep up with you and post when I can.
I think it would help to GAL. Do things for you. Hobbies where you lose yourself in them are excellent. They build emotional reserves. They make you feel better.
Don't take your wife seriously. She needs a good therapist, probably some form of medication. She's sick. Really sick. Her flip-flopping could be many things: bi-polar, depression, who knows? Don't hang on every word. She's like a raging storm. She needs help.
Try not to let her current mood/posture affect yours.
The more you GAL, the more you will not pressure her to do anything in order for you to be happy. The more you GAL the less she will feel her power over you. The more you GAL the more yuo wil be attractive to her. Tee more you GAL the less threatened you'll feel by the OM who is a psychotic, manipulative scum bucket.
The only real thinking/studying you might need to do is figure out what she's getting from OP that you aren't giving her. Perhaps he listens more, perhaps he's more passionate and open, perhaps he's dangerous/crazy and that seems more "alive" to her. Who knows? It could be that it's just the endorphin/adrenaline high of a new romance that lasts 6-18 months. Every wife who has an OM says he fills a hole in her that you don't. Either way, you are growing stronger and wiser. You'll outlast him. By the way, Getting a life makes you more fun and intuitive, which might be what she likes in him.
And it's OK to say NO regarding things like celebrating Thanksgiving with him and meeting him. He's trying to steal your wife. He's a scumbag. How can I say this nicely?... be a man. DO NOT enable her affair. Do not approve of it. Why don't you hold his coat for him and wash his car while he sleeps with your wife? Sorry to be that rude, but my wife expected me to remain best friends with the guy who was having an EA with her.
If you try and push him away, you'll make him more attractive. If you act frightened they'll both smell your fear and eat you alive. But draw a firm line: You don't want to be buddy with this guy, nor do you want to meet him. She'll respect you more if you have some boundaries.
I also think that this OM is wiley. He's got nothing to lose, so he's dangerous, he takes risks and is rather relaxed. If you met him he'd make mince-meat out of you. In your mind you have too much to lose so you're tense. If you GAL, you'll relax more, by the way.
I think your wife doesn't have the courage to divorce you. She's a mess. I also think she's wondering how long the new you will last. You'll last because you are getting a life and investing in yourself. You are the light in the darkness. You are a great man.
Keep at it.
If being there for your wife improves things between you. Go for it.
I don't know if I have posted to you or not. Walkingback asked me to stop by to see if there is anything I could offer you in the way of help. I apologize that I don't have time to go back over your entire sitch but I read the last few pages and thing I get the gist.
Actually, reading your story scares the hell out of me because there are similarities to mine except that my W has yet to go back to saying she loves the OM (and shows very little sign of doing so anytime soon) but she did say something like that a few weeks ago. Like you, I was sure all that was in the past and I would never have to hear that kind of thing again.
One thing my W shared with me that may help you understand where your W's head's at is the fact that to this day, 6+ months after they supposedly broke things off, he's still calling her. He's still professing his undying love for her and telling/reminding her that she's screwing up her life by staying with me. She says even though she's pretty clear in her mind she's done with him, and told him this, it still hurts her to remember where she was not too long ago.
Of course, she told me all the same "bad things" about her OM that your W told you about hers but still seems to have a soft spot for him. I think this is because they perceive these guys as the ones who were there for them in their time of need. The OM still represents a certain freedom and promise of a new, better life. We still, at least in some ways, represent the old, unchanging, "bad" life they feel trapped into.
So, my W was on that fence not too long ago, put there by listening to a message from OM (or at least she said it was just a message...and one actual conversation soon after) but she seems to have chosen to come back to my side...this time.
I am afraid sometimes, like you, that she'll not make that same choice next time but hey, I can't control that. I can only keep working on me and she makes her mind up from there.
Granted, my sitch is a bit better off than yours (sorry) but the fear, the not knowing part is still there. I think that's one of the lessons in all this; you NEVER know, which is why you can't put all your "happiness"-eggs in her basket. You have to learn to carry some, if not all the burden for your happiness in this life on your own. That way no matter what she does, you will not walk away a shell of a man, left with nothing, inside or out.
You HAVE to begin the process of emotionally distancing yourself from her, detaching from this wild swing of emotion that she's going through.
My W has a constant refrain she uses with me that goes something like; "You don't know what it's like. You don't know how hard this is."
Sure, we laugh until we pee ourselves at a WAS saying something like that, but I assure you, as bad as we have it, I honestly do think we have it better. We only have one set of feelings, one other person to deal with in this. Our arguments, decisions, actions, etc, are only seen and reacted to by one person. Theirs are reacted to and judged by two people, usually in diametrically opposite ways. No matter WHAT your W does, someone will be pissed, probably VERY emotional, and for someone who is very tuned in to emotions right now, not to mention being a woman (sorry ladies), that can be a very tough place to be...albeit one entirely self-created and not deserving of our pity.
Pity is one thing, understanding and compassion are another and that's where you can do some work. Try to stop putting yourself, her and OM into the roles of good and evil and understand that it's a terribly complicated situation who's moral rightness or wrongness is entirely dependant on who you are in the equation.
I'm SURE my W's OM, probably based largely on what she's told him, believes he's actually trying to save my W from a living hell in our marriage. HE thinks I am the one who's evil...of course, he's wrong, lol.
All I am trying to say is that one of the largest hurdles I had to overcome in all this was the assigning of blame and labels to all of this. He's evil, she's a b!tch, I'm an a$$hole, I'm great, she's bad, he's demented, she's crazy...
Pick yourself up, stop trying to figure her out and start living your life with a purpose. Make that purpose to grow yourself beyond the description your marriage has provided you with. Grow beyond being just a husband, father, son, etc and into the man you really want to be.
I will try to keep up with you and post when I can.
GH
THAT'S the man to listen to, mepicurious. Look up his old threads if you get some time. The depth at which he has come to understand the dynamics at play with a WAW such as this, is staggering. I "met" Grasshopper here over a year ago and much of what you're going through now...well, he blazed a trail for you. He can help you. Just reading his old threads can help you.
Be a sponge during your time here. You are getting a TON of great advice. Much of it ends up being "taken" in due time, when you reach a certain point in the trauma of it all. It will be easier to "detach" the fuller your gut becomes from all the BS. Detaching, I think, is more a place at which you arrive than something that you do. So don't worry about it if you aren't "detached" yet. Get involved in something you enjoy, or always thought about doing...in short, GAL. It will help keep your head straight when all else is spinning out of control.
You're in a good place here and are surrounded by lots of great people that have walked the walk you're on now.
So...be a sponge, don't sweat the things you can not control/change and take care of yourself.
You have posted before - way back when. I thanked you for it then, and I'm thanking you now. Man, it's been a long road for both of us. I appreciate you giving me some insight as to what's around the bend.
Yeah, the OM thing is a recurrent thorn in my side. It is VERY strange to hear about how you W feels about her OM, because it works very much the same way with my own. On at least four or five occasions, my W has gone into exhaustive detail about what a disaster her OM is. I mean exhaustive. The way she describes it, the psychologists of the world would have a field day just trying to classify everything that's out of kilter with this character. Or at least that what she tells me, and I'm assuming that's partly going on what he tells her. I do think that he invents problems to gain her sympathy (the woe is me routine), but there is some weird crap (most troublingly having to do with his attitudes toward incest, for example) that no-one would just throw about about themselves to gain a shoulder to cry on.
And my W still has a soft spot for him. Even after she's told me she recognizes that he tries to make her feel responsible for him and his plentitude of mental aberrations.
I know what you mean about the OM "being there in her hour of need" too, and how that might contribute to the attraction: my W was very unhappy, nearly suicidal, and OM was there at the end of the line with all sorts of psychological/"spiritual growth" advice, a good deal of which had to do with getting away from a "horrible, damaging" marriage.
It doesn't take much to reignite this feeling, either. During counseling, she was communicating with him all the time, then called it off at least twice. (Small wonder counseling didn't accomplish much for the marriage.) He always got her back by sending carefully chosen gifts that were likely to call for at least a thread of gratitude. Once that feeling started up (I could see it in the way she'd refer to him, or in the fact that she referred to him at all), it was just a matter of time before the whole thing was up and running again.
Now, for detaching, I'm working on it. Your point about understanding what she's going through speaks to this. I'm sure you're right: as lousy as this is for me, she's being jerked around in at least two different ways. The less I feel like I can influence what happens (although I think that we DO have an influence that a simple attitude of "detachment" doesn't address), the more I can empathize with what she's feeling, and vice-versa. They build on each other.
That helps with my judgmental attitudes. I still think this OM is a filthy sort of opportunist, and I genuinely despise him, but I'm not standing out there waiting to cast the first stone, as tempting as it is. I get angry about my W, but for the most part, I don't label her an adultress or anything. Like you, I have a hell of a problem holding on to this rather generous sense, even though I recognize that it is to my benefit. I have a sprited nature that tends toward the all-consuming kinds of passions, so sometimes I really feel like leading the whole situation into the deepest pits of hell just to get all this pussyfooting over. I don't know if you get that sort of impatience to force the isssue, even for the worse, but I have to fight against it pretty often. I know about where it comes from, but that doesn't make it go away.
Anyway, thanks for stopping in. It is really good to talk to people who've gone through this. Good luck in coming out on the other side - make sure you tell me when it finally happens.
I'll be here, trying to chart a course through the storm.
Yes, GH does have some great insights into this. I'm sure they were hard-won, as all of these things tend to be. That's what makes them all the more valuable, and I'm thankful that kind people like you guys are here to help out with them.
I agree with you about "detaching": I don't know how much I can "decide" to do it - most of the time, I just get so sick of being jerked around that I start backing off, reminding myself to stay loving.
So yeah, I think we incorporate this stuff when we're ready. Or when we've run out of other ways to look at the matter.
Saying all that, however, doesn't make me feel all that much better. I feel older, maybe wiser, but generally less well-put-together than before.
I suppose that the whole GAL thing is supposed to address that.
Thanks for your input. I've made it abundantly clear that I cannot, will not, and never will approve of my W's relationship with the OM. She knows that, but probably hopes (with his encouragement) that I'll get over it eventually and that everyone will be as happy as clams.
Here's God's own truth: I don't want to lose my W. But even stronger than that feeling is that I do not want her life to be ruined by such a piece of living you-know-what.
(I say this not to demonize this OM, but because I know that what he wants from her - she told me - would basically chain down her spirit and destroy her dreams.)
She has known this. But she goes back to him anyway. I cannot grasp how recognizing how pernicious this relationship would be can hold hands with "following your heart," especially when my W's shown wisdom and discernment elsewhere.
So I can hold my own regarding this *-hole. As much as I detach from the situation (she's her own person and HAS to make her own choices), I still don't feel good about what's going on, though.
In that way, you're right about me being at a disadvantage in that way. I don't know if the OM recognizes how damaging he would be to my W (she's told me he's said some things which lead me to believe that he's not blissfully unaware), but he certainly has to have some inkling about how anxious I am about regarding my W's safety with him. And he can use it against me. Case in point: I've found out he's characterized me as "insecure" to my W. No matter that my (misplaced) belief that I can "save" my W from a mouldering gutbag of psychological abortions contributes to that sense of anxiety. For all his "insight," that just sort of drifts away.
But let's not demonize. It's not worth it.
We'll see about the W's courage. There are days where I think her newfound "self" will lead her right to the nearest divorce lawyer - even if she wants me to 'help'.
I'd like to see the courage go in another direction.
My W "cannot" be married to be. But nevertheless, she wants me in her life "forever" and cannot even think about living as far away as another state.
This would be an interesting scenario, as I don't think that I could comfortably live downwind of the OM she is contemplating as her next life partner.
Is this vacillation on her part?
Or is it just nostalgia, fear, or pity masquerading as real love and attachment?
Ok, Ok, I'm supposed to be detaching. But that doesn't speak against trying to figure out what is up. Even if I should "believe none of what I hear and half of what I see"...
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
She can't have you in her life forever at her beck and call -- the patient friend who holds her hand while she steps on your heart and screws another man. Sorry. She will have you in her life only as long *you* wish to continue divorce-busting. At some point, you will decide when it's over. You hold all the cards, remember that. You are not stuck. You can choose. If you still want your wife back, then you will choose to remain in her life so she can be attracted to your full, interesting, playful and winsome life. Don't hang around her to try and save her -- you can't.
I don't know what's causing this flip/flop in her. Probably a good therapist can help her figure this out. And probably only a therapist can cure her of it. My therapist told me that venting/emotional catharsis experiences like crying, getting mad, screaming, sleeping all day, throwing up, etc, are not cures. They just perpetuate or worsen the problem. Emotions are not disconnected entities that need to be expunged every so often, rather, it's the case that emotions emerge from our thoughts/beliefs. Unless those beliefs/thoughts are healed, addressed, resolved in a congnitive/behavioral fashion, they will continue to cause the roller-coaster emotions.
But I understand you are trying to figure our what's up with her. I'm stumped. It might be guilt, it might be bi-polar issues.
Again, getting a life, detaching and being filled with strength/grace allow you to release the pressure, and act less anxiously/fearfully. GAL will attract her. You can't save her from OM. You can't push away OM. All you can do is attract her. What are you GAL activities?
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