Mojo is 42

[OG_Lou]

LFL said I miss all you guys and our discussions,
Been missing you too LFL. I am sorry about the post I made. I really wasn't trying to start anything.

My M is not that different now than it was before (in terms of the sex), but we are at some level of peace now.
Same here. Not initiating has some benefits.

Hopefully this board is about growth and not just a pissing match.
Yes, hopefully.

I care about you guys.
I am sure many of the forum posters care about you and want the best for you and your family.

Feel free to ignore me as I know you will but maybe someone will take it to heart.
No way we are going to ignore you LFL.

Take care.
U2.

Lou

[OG_Lou]

Mojo said Does that guy feel HD because he's not getting any or does he feel LD because his wife is fat? How does he justify leaving her when she's got that note from the doctor without feeling like a bad guy?
A relavant question for me Mojo. BB seems to think she is over the hill (IE some medical reason for her LD) so I need to consider her feelings, do things her way.

I consider "How do I justify" my needs when she seems to have her note from her Dr. The whole leaving thoughts/situation even makes me more up-tight. Feeling like the bad guy? Yes I can relate.

[honeypott]

Jenny,
Do you have a daily planner? Although it is high time I use something like this, I am predictably resistent to it. Just the *thought* of recording my activities in a book gives me the heebie jeebies. I hate the thought of: scheduling myself, the boringness of having my days all 'filled' with tedium. Etc etc. I know you will relate to my ridiculous thoughts/fears.

However. It is getting harder and harder to mentally keep track of my kids' activities and I'm tired of remembering things at the last minute. I'd like to get more organization into my days and yet what I want to avoid is this: Getting all fired up, buying a $20 planner and meticulously writing in it for the first week, then watching it gather dust for the rest of its (short) life. It's almost like I want to be organized but fear my own shortcomings so I avoid it in order to avoid my loserness. I love making lists and am quite successful in accomplishing most of the things but not in a "check. that's done" sort of way. My way is to make the list and then never look at it again while I attempt to mentally remember everything that's on it. Lillie and all you other normal people, do not even attempt to analyze why I do this: it's my nature and it's ridiculous and I realize that. I'm attempting to change but need the advice of other organizational disaster areas like myself so that I can get into a system that I may actually stick with.

I sooooooooo want to get organized. My daughters deserve to have an organized mom--most especially my first grader, who is dependent on me to reliably introduce her to the world.

Anyway, I seem to work like this: I resist any attempts at change (from internal and external sources) until one day I say "I've had enough of this" and then I change and never look back. I can tell when I've reached the IHEoT stage and when I'm just pulling my own leg. For example, I was much heavier when we first married. One day, I thought 'I'm sick of being overweight.' I've never been heavy since then. I would say the only other person who can tell when I've totally had it and when I'm just bs'ing is my mom. Unfortunately, she is a type 1 and would make me feel like an imbecile if I asked her about daily planners. So I will avoid that and ask you instead.

I truly feel ready to embrace a more organized lifestyle. So bring it on! What system do you use? Any advice for me? Sorry for the hijack but I need your help.

[Cobra]

HP,

I used to keep a day planner, which works well enough, but I got tired of it being too bulky. I used a small compact planning calendar, but got tired of having to rewrite contact information into a new planner the next year.

Now I have a Palm Treo 650, which also serves as a phone. The newer models have broadband internet service. Also Palm seems to have the most third party applications. I used Iambic Agendus which is an enhancement of the Palm contact, calendar, memo and task functions. I enter everything on the PC, then just Hotsync to the Treo. Very easy and very organized.

Agendus keeps tracks of appointments, can schedule tasks, have them recur at intervals as reminders, set alarms, using colors and icons. I also keep all my contact information on it, including work info. I also keep names, numbers & addresses of all my kid’s friends (since they never seem to hear their phone). In the memo function I keep all my user IDs, passwords, websites, credit card, insurance, banking information. I can also pull my home email through Agendus mail, as well as text messages.

Some third party applications I use are:
• Palmary Clock – Timer, stopwatch & alarm application
• The Core Media Player – application to view compressed movies, pictures, mp3 music
• Sound Recorder – records voice memos & stores to external card (I have a 4 GB SD card)
• Handy Shopper – Allows me to select from my entire grocery shopping list by category, then resorts the needed items by aisle in the store
• Directory Assistance – access Yellow Pages to search phone number via the internet
• Google Maps – enter an address to get a map just like on your PC
• Zlauncher – Palm application manager. Also uses 4cast, an automatic weather update utility on the main screen.

I got my daughter a Windows Mobile based pocket PC, which is nice since it runs MS office applications, but there is not nearly as much in the way of third party applications available.

My Treo has really organized me and everything I need is on my hip!

[MJontheMend]

I think you hit the nail on the head, exactly, when you talked about not being in your comfort zone anymore. And, even better for you, you've changed enough now that even if you did go back to that comfort zone, it still isn't going to feel comfortable to you.

Exactly what I was trying to convey.

This is where the woman needs to stand as still as she can. Do what you can, as best as you are able. Your old habit would have been to pull the 'chicken little' response... but obviously, that is not feeling quite 'right' to you. But in absence of ever being in this new place you now find yourself, you aren't quite sure what to do.

This is true. I don't feel hurt and therefore don't act like "chicken little" when my H exhibits bullying behavior anymore but I'm not sure how to act. I chose to react in a manner that would be described as "demanding respect" but that reaction wasn't really natural or spontaneous. It was more like something I chose off a shelf of possible reactions, like I was telling myself "I should demand respect in this situation." in the same way I would tell myself "I should buy cereal with more fiber.". The funny thing is that my daughter was in the kitchen making herself some toast when my H started off on his cranky attack but she didn't pay any attention to what was going on. However, as soon as I calmly said "Don't speak to me in that manner." she grabbed her toast and skedaddled right out of the kitchen.-LOL

You sit down, assess the situation, and you stay exactly where you are until you can begin to think rationally again. You take stock in what supplies you do (or don't) have with you, you take stock in what you do and don't know about your surroundings, you try to find your bearings...

Good analogy. As I mentioned in my reply to BF, in real life my "flailing" just shows up as distractability. This weekend I was driving along a country route that I have driven a million times and I unconsciously took a wrong turn and ended up completely lost twenty minutes out of my way. I literally end up lost when I feel like I'm losing it.

[MJontheMend]

Did you make a heartfelt personal commitment to the MAN, or did you just promise to take him on as a project? Or to make the best of the soup you found yourselves in?

Have there been times in my marriage when I would have wanted to make a heartfelt personal commitment to my H if I believed it would be returned? Yes. Is that a good enough answer?

Also, I have to say that I don't think that the heart is the organ people should be making any sort of commitments with. I mean would you lend somebody $1000 if they said "I really feel in my heart like I will want to pay you back someday.". You would feel better if they said "I give you my word that I will pay you back.". That is why I initially answered you by telling you what vows I took. I make commitments with my word or my honour, not my heart which is fickle or my soul which is perfect (the soul being perfect makes its own commitments).

[MJontheMend]

No. No no no. The emotional wear and tear is not the part you disregard. You tell him the effect it has had on you emotionally, and that you can not take it anymore. Youve taken a lot of emotional wear and tear on this issue, for a long time and you just cant handle anymore.
Then you focus on what is. Things are getting better.

This is what I mean when I was talking about the timing of my smoke alarm. When would I tell him this? I feel like I have to choose between kicking him when he's already down or, as you indicate, being negative when the situation has improved or being the alarm that goes off at any little sign that things are getting worse. My desire to flee when things are getting better is due to the fact that my experience has taught me that they will get worse again and yet I feel like it would be cruel to flee when things are bad. Really, his negative self-destructive job quitting type behavior puts me into the same sort of situation as a woman whose H keeps going into rehab and then starts drinking again.

I think the way a woman implements boundaries is very important. She will lose respect as the guy is acknowledging her boundaries, If she does it in a masculine fashion, (remember Chrissy?) the guy can either escalate further which is usually anger, violence, etc, or begin filling the feminine energy void. as soon as chrissys H started accepting her boundaries, she left. Not prior when he was behaving badly but still being 'more masculine'.

I must have missed that part of Chrissy's story. However, another way to look at this phenomena is that when a woman becomes strong/brave enough to enforce these types of boundaries, she simultaneously becomes strong/brave enough to leave.

OTOH, I think that you are right. I really gain nothing if I enforce my boundaries in a masculine fashion and end up being the Alpha male in my relationship because, unlike MsHD for example (LOL), I know that I don't want to be the Alpha male.

Look at this again. What was it you said you dont want? Him yelling at you, or him caring about your car/you/braking safety/transmission wear and tear/cash outflow/etc?

set your boundary for the right thing. focus on what it is that hurts you emotionally. And then let him know that, like a woman. If you can do that, you might be surprised by your H's ability to show you affection.

ex. Its nice that you care about my safety and the cars wear and tear, but when you yell at me it doesnt feel like you care. It hurts. Alot.

I get where you're going with this and I'm not disagreeing but I have a question and a comment. What does saying this convey that my old typical, natural reaction of simply crying didn't? Remember my H was never able to show me affection when I cried. He would just stalk off to his silent man lair. He would explain this behavior by saying "I can't be the one who comforts you when I'm the one who hurt you. You are crazy to seek comfort from the one who hurt you." Also, if I'm going to be honest, I will say that if I don't cry when he yells at me then that is because it didn't hurt so I'm just some sort of manipulative liar if I stand there without tears in my eyes and say "It hurts. A lot.".

If I think back to my FOO, I realize that I have an absolute expectation that I should expect to be comforted by the man who hurt me because sometimes Daddy would yell at me and send me to my room but later he would always hug me and make it better too. Well, I'm a grown-up now and Daddy is gone and he ain't coming back and I have to deal with the fact that sometimes I'm going to cry and nobody is going to make it better. And sometimes I'm going to throw my little jingle ball against a wall and nobody is going to come out to play with me. I've got to learn how to be okay with that or I will be like a defenseless bunny.

Ive been thinking alot about my 'do nothing' behavior, since you opened the possibility of it getting a pity reaction.
I really enjoy seeing women 'bloom' and embrace their femininity. It feels great assisting them with that. I get great satisfaction out of it or I wouldnt be doing it. In many ways its much more maligned then men being masculine. someone mentioned to me that I am drawn to women who havent found there femininity yet. I dont think thats exactly correct, cause I can see it in nearly all of them. I guess thats how I satisfy 'saving the princess'. Besides, Ill fall in love with ones who have it, which is too damn scary. There was this one, and the voice in my head said Run Forest Run. But when they start to find it, or become it, or act that way its just a reaction. As soon as I start my 'do nothing' (which doenst mean I act placating...thats just destructive, I expect a woman to be repulsed by it) I find out if they understand that acting like a woman has nothing to do with me. They have the ability to continue the behaviors that make them feel so happy and satisfied, when they are just reacting. But when they flail they (unconsciously I am sure) prove that they hold me responsible for their behavior.

I refuse to do that to myself, anymore.

I'm not sure that you realize that in many ways you have sort of set yourself up to be the hero of the typical romance novel that women read. The female protagonist in a romance novel is never the passive or helpless princess waiting in the tower to be saved. She is almost always a woman striving to be independent in some manner, supporting herself as a governess, fleeing a cruel situation by dressing as a boy and stowing away on a ship, running the farm on her own while her father and brothers are away fighting a war or simply refusing to be sold off to the highest bidder in an arranged marriage. The hero is the man so manly that he is able to overcome her resistance to giving up her independence and provide her with a safe harbor in which she can express her femininity.

So, if I read you right, you want to be with the woman who maintains her expression of femininity or is able to validate her own femininity even when you stop acting like the hero by "doing nothing" (I'm still wondering what exactly this entails-LOL). I find this fascinating. So from your POV, women are sort of needy to have the scene in the novel in which the woman's masculine style resistance or desire for independence is overcome by the man's manliness play over and over again in their lives. This neediness leads to either self-destructive or relationship destructive behavior when the need isn't met. The woman (I'll use dysfunctional me as an example)is either thinking "I am not good enough for anyone to want to rescue me in that manner." (which would cause me to eat cookies for comfort in the past) or thinking "He is incapable of rescuing me in that manner so I must find another hero." (which would cause me to go about town dressed in hip-hop style clothing in the past)or thinking "Nobody is going to rescue me. There is no black stallion. Therefore, I have to rescue myself." (which is pretty much what I am thinking now which causes me to exhibit more independent oriented masculine style behavior such as demanding respect and saying "I" will fix "my" car).

Okay, so I spent some time trying to think of any woman in my acquaintance who could be described as self-validating in her femininity. The best I could come up with is women who validate their femininity through people other than the man in their life. A lot of women validate their femininity by being maternal. Some women validate their femininity by interacting with other women. I can't think of anyone I know who validates her femininity through herself. Also, I think that women who tend to strongly validate their femininity through children or other women generally tend to be LD to the extent to which they do this. There have been numerous examples on this BB of women who Mommycized themselves out of sexuality and I think Choc's wife might be a good example of a woman who "dresses for other women" and validates her femininity through that sort of competition with other women. The kind of woman who is constantly joining groups like the PTA or throwing Tupperware parties is also validating her femininity through other women but in a collaborative rather than a competitive manner.

Anyway, I am very interested in your experiment. Please keep us informed about how it is going. However, I'm kind of thinking you might have to go to France or somewhere like that where the women are better trained in the feminine arts to find the kind of woman you are looking for.

[MJontheMend]

He's looking for a feminine smile of encouragement that he's doing his 'man' thing in a way that might be pleasing to you. You could say "Chimps are fun, but what a lovely, cute donkey you are... and donkeys are so much fun, in their own, loving cute way." Or something bit of flirty light humor type talk that gives him the tiny boost he'd like to have from you (which, btw, costs you nothing, but does worlds of good for him).

Well, I did smile and say that I appreciated his help. I was just a bit confused because his statement was offered in a manner such that he was making what I would have just regarded as manly behavior into placating behavior. It's like he was saying "See how I am placating you.".

The whole scene where you started to laugh/cry after your son's comment about the laundry, and him saying, 'fine, I'll go to work on Monday,' ... Mo... believe it or not, you inspired him. He picked up his 'man reins' again. He may not have made the move in a stellar fashion, could have done it in a more sauve, sophisticated 'all male' kind of way... but you need to see, and be patient with, the fact that he IS climbing down out of his tower and spending more time out in the sunshine with you. The more comfortable HE gets with it, the less clumsy he'll become with picking back up on his place as the man in the family.

Actually this was a positive interaction and I know it. I'm sorry if I didn't convey that in my post. I am so unused to getting any sort of positive reaction from my H when I react by crying that I was sort of amazed that I did. Almost certainly it had to do with the fact that I spent two weeks!! being the brave little soldier/nurse and he knew that it wouldn't be fair to ask much more of me.

[MJontheMend]

Please note that my current level of organization consists of a set of skills or habits that I have slowly and painfully acquired over the years in order to combat my Type 7 problems with and resistance to order and routine.


The first thing to realize is that because you are a Type 7 you will need to change your schedule on a regular basis or you will grow resistant to it in a bratty way. So you tell yourself that you will have a schedule but you will change it if it isn't working for you. The second thing to realize is that you will have the tendency to yell at yourself with your schedule in order to overcome your bratty resistance. For example, you will find yourself writing things like "WEED GARDEN TODAY!!! DON'T BE LAZY!!" or "PAY SALES TAX ON TIME THIS YEAR IDIOT!!!". Don't do this. Be nice to yourself.

My organizational bag of tricks consists of a large desk calendar and three word documents entitled "Daily Routine", "Weekly Routine" and "To Do Soon". I edit these documents constantly so that I always have an organized routine but it is always changing to fit the season or other current needs, be more efficient or simply because I'm bored with it. Every Sunday morning I print out my Weekly Routine document and I print out my Daily Routine document each day. I print up a new To Do Soon template as soon as the old one is filled. As I go through my day I cross items off my list of routines and my To Do list. One of the first things on my daily routine list is to check my calendar. I add my planned events for the day to the sidebar of my list of routines along with a couple To Do items that I consider critical. (I should note here that I also have several notebooks in which I keep lists which are basically the equivalent of long-term To Do Items or ideas which I've generated. For instance in my garden notebook I might jot down something like "Learn how to make hyper-tufa troughs". ) Because I am self-employed and work at home, I sort of chunk up my daily routine into home/work/relax. So I have an AM housework routine and an AM business routine. Also I try to have a good mix of things that I can just do purely by habit in a mindless way and things I need to concentrate on. For instance, I tidy the house on auto-pilot first thing in the morning but then I switch over to answering customer e-mails.

Really the best advice I could offer you would be to join FlyLady and buy the book "Renaissance Soul". I have read a jillion organizational books over the years and I think these two systems combined will lead to the highest level of functioning for a Type 7. However, I will warn you that they do offer sort of contradictory advice so you have to adapt.

[MJontheMend]

Wow! I just had a Eureka moment by simultaneously thinking about my problem, BF's problem and FlyLady. What BF needs is to find a woman who had a really good relationship with her father AND her mother growing up. That woman will like men AND she will like herself. When BF starts "doing nothing" and stops being "Daddy" she will simply switch over to "mothering" herself in order to self-validate her femininity.

So, obviously, my problem is that I had a good relationship with my father, so I like men but a bad relationship with my mother so I have a hard time liking myself or my feminine side. This is somewhat mitigated in my case by the fact that I grew up in a household of sisters to whom I am close but being the oldest sister I was the "little mother" to my sisters rather than someone who was mothered by an older sister. Therefore, the only way in which I am comfortable self-validating my femininity is in the maternal role. The reason why I find the FlyLady site so helpful (beyond the straightforward organizational help) is that FlyLady acts as a mother to all of her FlyBabies who join the site. She is basically teaching her followers how to mother themselves and that is a skill that I am in desperate need of.

It must be really obvious that I need this in real life. For instance, there is a very nice post office worker who I see most days because she usually does my mailing. Her manner and appearance is such that if I were a 65 year old man I would want to be married to her (She is probably just barely old enough to be my mother). When I got my new red valise to replace my ratty old catch-all, she said something like "That is so nice! Look how organized you are." and the next day she gave me a check protector thingee. I almost started crying.

When I need "rescuing" and feel like there is nobody to rescue me, I naturally try to become my own "Daddy" because that is who rescued me when I was young. If I can become my own "Mommy" when I need rescuing then I can rescue myself without forsaking my femininity. This is kind of what I was trying to do in a subconscious self-destructive manner when I fed myself cookies for comfort.