Lil said She's a divorce lawyer, so she comes in contact with men at their worst.
I don't know if Ms. HD is like/reacts like BB but i see this work and marriage relationship at work in our M at times.
BB was a med nurse in a 28 day hospital-in patient CO-Dependency program. Talk about bringing work home.
BB saw what men did to women's self-esteem and how men influenced some women for the worse. Of course, I never heard what women did to men. I can imagine some of the clients of Ms. HD paint one picture and the client's spouse could paint a different picture. I don't think the so called offending party in a D is totally to blame for the D or sep.
I am mostly backing up what Lil said, Ms. HD sees some men as the enemy due to her work related experiences. It isn't only Ms. HD that does this, lots of men and women bring part of their work attitude home.
That is only one part of HD's problem. How much of a problem is it?
(bf) Telling her he wants a woman that fillintheblank, would probably prompt her to reply that he should go get him one of those women.
Fair point. I still don't like your last sentence but it points out the shortcomings in my version. For my own purposes I'll change it to something like, "And I'll teach her to surrender to me," trusting my own strength. That sort of implies I'm responsible for something beyond my control but I can live with that.
(Lil) Telling his wife what he "deserves" will just send the convo down a winding path into the deep, dark, featureless piney woods from whence it will never emerge.
I see your point. What I don't like about the "N times per week" statement is that it can feed into the LD spouse's notion that "they don't want *me*, they just want s3x". Also, if she agrees and gives him cold fish s3x once a week, he's gotten what he asked for.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Hey Lou... She represents both women and men, and seems to me to be able to view both her client, and the other party, fairly objectively. It's not that she's "bringing her work home," so much as she's bringing an "intolerance to compromise" to our home, and that is something she doesn't necessarily practice at work.
Burg: I see your point about the "he doesn't want me, he just wants sex", and that she may indeed choose to give "cold fish" or "crap" sex, x times a week, but I think that it's still worth a shot. Perhaps she'll see my attitude improve because a)I'm getting whatever I'm getting x times a week, and b)I appreciate that she's making an effort, even if it's a poor effort. As my attitude improves, the general marital attitude improves, and then she'll finally realize how easy it all is, etc.
And then, of course, the fairy princess will come out of the magic pumpkin and reveal that our house is made of gold and that I can fly, become invisible, control time, and we'll all live happily ever after.
It could happen.
Hairdog, who always claps at the appropriate time in "Peter Pan"
The one that has the "I think of leaving you every single day" struck a chord, although I could see W getting off on the "threat" tangent. Yes, the less said, the better.
I hazard the guess that you do spend mental energy every day thinking about getting out. Ultimately, you do yourself and the marriage a disservice by not making her aware of just how deeply the damage is in your current marriage.
As to the threat thing - yeah, I felt the same way when NOP said "I can't keep doing this." in regards to our SSM. But it wasn't truly a threat. It was an assessment of his mental and emotional capabilities of continuing in the marital situation we were in.
At another time I told him in regards to an issue that we were dealing with, "I'm not a superhero, I have limitations on what I can handle over an extended length of time, we've got to get to some resolution on this because I'm reaching my emotional limit."
"Is that a threat?"
I pondered a moment and said, "no" although I could see how it could be interpreted that way. We all recognize that we have physical limits. I have always been physically stronger than many women my size/age. So, I've never hesitated to grab the side of some huge box of stuff or couch, etc. There are times when the weight of the object is just beyond my capabilities. I can handle it for a short time and then when my muscles start trembling under the load, I have to stop.
So, I have said, "we'll have to figure something else out to deal with this because I physically can't do it anymore."
That's not a threat. It is an assessment. It is the truth.
At some point Harry, your (legitimate human) emotional limits are going to leave you open to great injury.
I know you may feel like it's a threat if you spoke it out loud. But remembering back to NOP's decision that this was going to be addressed in our marriage - the expression "I can't keep doing this" was said totally without anger, there was a certain sound of grieving it it, of regret.
Even in the whirlwind of my own emotions, his resolute, calm utterance (repeated often) made it sink in deeply.
That is key for you as your wife starts down the well worn ruts ruts of verbal anger - keep your response simple, "We can talk about that later, right now I would like to discuss a plan for the lack of sex in our marriage that can be implemented within one week."
Heck, it is closer to happening than you might think Hairdoggy: Your house may not be made of gold (and if it was, it probably wouldn't be structurally sound), but the increase in real estate values makes it worth at least a sizeable pile of gold, and by selling it you could convert it to gold if you so chose. You can learn to fly, and according to this, you'll become invisible in just a few short years (heck, it sounds like you are already invisible to MrsHD half the time). This book says you can control your time and tells you how. I'll leave the F'ing fairies up to you (now you got us guys wondering about you Hairy). I don't think I even want to know what you plan to do with the pumpkin.
"We can talk about that later, right now I would like to discuss a plan for the lack of sex in our marriage that can be implemented within one week."
Or *what*?
OR:
I'm no longer wiling to invest time or effort into meeting your EN's because I'm not willing to invest in a relationship in which my feelings and experiences aren't valued. I'm not willing to invest in a relationship that does not include solving problems I HAVE inside the relationship. Therefore, you should expect me to: (my suggestion would be) to be less invested in continuing to do work on the list you have provided for me and will begin investing in myself.
But, Harry has to figure out just what price he is willing to pay. If the answer is none, then his life will continue on the path it is currently on until some sweet thing makes his heart go twitter and he finds it amazingly easy to pay that price.
OR: I am no longer enthusiastic about doing any of those things. If that causes problems for you, I am open to negotiation as long as it involves solving some issues I have with the relationship, too.
OR:
You can move to higher risk strategies. And, if you have the rare partner who truly isn't worried about WHAT you do or wants to divorce you if you won't meet his/her needs without expecting reciprocation, then you might recognize that is a form of abuse and end the marriage or allow the marriage to end.
What he doesn't have to do is to continue jumping through hoops and yes ma'aming her every controlling whim in the hopes that she might dole out some tidbit of care for him.
MrsNop: thanks for putting the pieces together from your posts like that. This type of response, to her "or what?", seems very similar to my "index card" presentation, albeit without the cards.
You know, if it turns into some sort of a stand-off, and I actually have to start being "less invested" in completing the items on her list, it's going to be one of those "hard habits to break." I'll have to channel a tiny blackfoot to sit on my shoulder and say, "WTF? So the house is getting dusty. BFD. Don't you dare get out that dust rag. What? You're still planning on making a nice Sunday dinner for the two of you to enjoy after you put DD5 to bed? Don't you think you'd rather spend the afternoon doing something you WANT to do, and then open a can of chili, heat it in the microwave, and sit in front of the TV with a beer?"
And there, in stand-off land, is where my resolve will face hers. That place, actually, is a big part of what makes me avoid confrontation with her initially. Stand-off land sucks, and, although it's quieter than confrontation-land (yelling vs. silent treatment), it's no less stressful.
I just have to continue to tell myself that we're here because I have tried hard to respond to her requests, waited for her to get around to dealing with my requests, decided that I'd waited long enough, made a reasonable request, and she refuses to comply, refuses to even respect me enough to consider it. I know I'm predicting things here, but it seems more probable than her saying, "okay."
You can move to higher risk strategies. And, if you have the rare partner who truly isn't worried about WHAT you do or wants to divorce you if you won't meet his/her needs without expecting reciprocation, then you might recognize that is a form of abuse and end the marriage or allow the marriage to end.
I agree with this and I think that most people on this BB would agree with this but... I think the thing that is tricky is figuring out A)how much of a mind reader you are supposed to be regarding this and B)what is a reasonable demand/need. For instance, Martelo's wife said "I need you to be patient.". Is this a reasonable demand?. Or consider my H saying that I need to be less "nerdy". Is this a reasonable demand? Is it reasonable to make any demand that isn't spelled out in a concrete fashion? For instance, if Martelo's wife felt like she wanted him to be "patient" because she had body image problems and she needed time to work on them, would it be Martelo's responsibility to keep pushing the conversation until she said "I need you to give me 3 mos. to work on this specific problem and then I will address the sexual issue."? Is it my responsibility to figure out just what there is about my behavior that is obnoxiously "nerdy" and therefore a turn-off?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
My plan is based on one major assumption – that Mrs. Hairdog exhibits extreme behavior and reactions, and seems to have strongly narcissistic behavior. This very fact rules out many of the approaches on this board. But I do not think she IS a narcissist since she gives out occasional clues of having some understanding of the situation. She is protecting herself with everything she can. Just because she went to counseling for years may not mean that much. I takes a counselor a long time to work toward one break through moment, the time when the person lets down the walls enough to FEEL. Once they feel their emotions, real progress can begin. I don’t think Mrs HD ever go to that point.
My idea is not to flood her with words, but to go through the one route she cannot deflect and that is her emotions. She will block this as much as she can, but once you get through, it will be hard for her to deny what she feels.
As far as the idea that I need to press my ideas to help me feel my actions are justified and 'right', I do not agree. I can emphatically state that no progress would have been made without addressing her FOO, and mine too. We danced around our issues for years, never touching on the FOO. Her walls were quite solid and were able to protect her quite well. The ONLY thing that got through to her was addressing her core hurts and what she really wanted deep down.
The situation with MrsHD is fairly unique and not one I would use with many others here, or at least not without tweaking. I would also challenge everyone else here who is stuck to step back and see what has worked and what has not. Have you truly addressed the REAL issues or just danced around them. There is a reason you are stuck and there is a real way to get unstuck. You need to figure out what that is.
Hairdog,
I think you should try Lil’s plan first. If it works, then great. I don’t think it will work because I see no reason for her to go along with it, and I see no consequence for her either. Like Burbud said: “Then What?”
You are not prepared to leave so you have thrown out your most powerful weapon. What do you have left? Do you really think she will decide to have sex and an intimate relationship because the house gets dusty or you don’t cook dinner? Get real. She will find a way to deal with that which she can live with and that may make you even more irritated. You can make all the rules and boundaries you want, but if they do not result in tangible actions, they are hollow. My wife knows this too well. IT TRULY ALL COMES DOWN TO POWER. You cannot avoid this.
I also disagree that my path is endless. It may be changing, but I think you must be flexible to react as necessary. As soon as she figures out what the straight and narrow path is, she can undermine it. The breakthrough that I think you need with her will be tough to achieve, but once made, I think it can slash a lot of time off your recovery process.
