(bf) I will say, when negotiating you have to shoot for the moon and then meet in the middle. you dont come in with your lowest acceptable terms, and expect that to be the end of the negotiation.
(Lil) ...why not do like the NOPs and tell her you want to do it every day.
If he's going to shoot the moon why not shoot the whole moon and ask for what he really wants? I don't know what he really wants, of course, but I suspect it's something like...
"I want a woman who's confident enough to allow a man into her life. A woman who's giving enough to explore my sexuality without judgment. Who's courageous enough to explore her own sexuality without flinching from what she finds. And a woman strong enough to surrender."
That oughta scare her into the occasional shag.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I've been running around with my head cut off all week, trying to check in on the board some, thinking of what I'd like to say on your thread, and Blackfoot comes in and says almost everything I was thinking! What I wanted to emphasize, at least IMO, is that all attempts to get her to "get" it are likely to be useless. I am going on the premise that your wife has some huge, serious trauma in her background.
Which reminds me - I am not sure I really know much about your wife. I knew you had an Asian daughter who I thought you adopted. Now I think you said something about your wife being Asian too. Is this correct? Can you tell us a little more about her background? Was she raised in the US? Were her parents born here or are they from the "old country?" What was her childhood like? Who abused her? Why is she such a b*tch? We need major details here.
Anyway, on with my thoughts before I forget... I think the ONLY way you are going to get her to understand anything about your POV or your needs is to turn on a light bulb within her by showing clear examples of things that hurt her feelings (hopefully she will get that!) and how you experience the exact same thing when she does those same things to you. I believe she has some strong narcissistic tendencies and therefore has learned to completely block any feelings of empathy. Since she is so smart, she has figured out ways to rationalize her position in lieu of feeling her real hurt. I don't believe you will ever get through this shell. Drop the strategy of "logicalling" her, it hasn't worked yet. You must approach her from her emotions, which is what she fears.
What is true, undeniable and inescapable is how she feels. That truth is within her, though very deep down. If you know what hurt her so badly as a child, then you need to capitalize on that. That is her weak point and that is your entry through her walls. The problem I see with some of the approaches discussed here is that they put you opposite her. She has built these walls because she already feels isolated from the world. Mounting a grand attack on those walls will only cause her to REALLY bring out the big guns. There will be casualties.
I think you are not ready to confront her yet, not matter how much you steel your nerve, rev up your indignation, or anything else. I do not see you having a real plan because I do not think you really understand her. What I recommend is this - lets discuss on this board all you know about her past, her FOO, what she experienced. If you need to, could you talk to some of her relatives to find out more. What do they say about her, about her parents? Let the ladies here get into her head a little better. You need to be looking for her core pain and fears. If you can identify that, even if it is not THE core issue, but a side issue, you will have an opening with which to make a plan.
A narcissist does not see reality. She wants to see whatever self image she needs to cover up her pain. What self image is it your wife wants to see? If you know that, it can be part of your plan. It can help you to lower her defenses so she can listen while you talk about YOUR hurts and fears. If you have a good analogy to her pain, then you may be able to segue into her hurts, and empathize with her in a fatherly, protective manner. I'm willing to bet she will eventually catch on to your tactics and start retaliating. If so, don't let it get to you, just keep after her and keep focusing like a laser on her core trauma and how she has used it to deflect, deny, hurt others, etc. Tell her that you KNOW she is hurt and scared, that you are not buying into her attacks and her anger does not scare or intimidate you AT ALL.
One very important point - keep pressing the attack while you have momentum. DO NOT start this and then stop halfway because you get weak or feel sorry for her. If you do, and she does not come to a full realization of what she is and what she is doing, she will see all of this as a very vindictive, underhanded, stab in the back. She will double her defenses and your next attempt will be even harder.
What she REALLY WANTS is for someone to understand. She WANTS you to open her up even though she will fight you. But if you can step back and observe as this process unfolds, you will notice that as each layers peels back, she will seem to accept it falling away, and focus on the next defense. As soon as it falls, she abandons it and moves to her next fall back position. Just let her. Keep pressing until she runs out of excuses. You need to be sharp, especially with her. That is why you need to be well prepared.
Now, once you get through to her, you will know. She will lessen the fight, she will become thoughtful, she will actually listen to SOME (not all) of what you say. At that moment of vulnerability you MUST rise to the occasion and hold her. She will fight to get free. Overpower her and hold on. Tell her you love her, understand her, that you are there to protect her, whatever her LL is.
I am really hoping you can get her to cry. Remember Corri's comment on her thread, that she is now learning to cry and it actually feels good? If you can get her to cry, she will be able to release a lot of anger, fear, tension, and doing so in your arms will FEEL GOOD. It is extremely important she EXPERIENCE this with you. It is trust building. She has probably never felt this with anyone in her life. I am guessing this is what she is angry about and what she has always wanted, probably from one of her parents. This is the truth deep within her, the pain she is protecting with those embattlements.
This approach can put the two of you on the same team, and let her know that HER pain and fear is YOUR pain and fear, and that she has nothing to be ashamed of in admitting this (how big an issue is shame for her?) She needs to COMPLETELY understand that you are NOT going to use this as ammunition against her, which is one of her fears. This is why making yourself vulnerable to another is so important. It tells the other person you will not use their vulnerability against them (ya hear this Heather?) If that person has any sense of morals, they will not use your vulnerability against you either. In fact, it is almost certain they won't.
Remember, the fact you are embroiled in this struggle, and she stays with you in order to continue the struggle, means she is just as frustrated as you. She is frustrated in part because she has expectations that she does not think you are meeting. That gap between reality and expectation is not the issue. The important thing is that SHE HAS EXPECTATIONS! So she still wants you to meet her needs. She wants this to work, though in her own controlling way. Even a narcissist sees the self serving logic in this. So I would not be concerned that she will use your vulnerability against you. Even that is too low and unethical for her. If she does, then I would say the marriage is truly over.
Now back to the plan. She has low self esteem. All narcissists do. They just act like they have loads of esteem. Remember, everything is an illusion, almost the exact opposite of reality. She has a hard time accepting praise or compliments and likewise does not like it when people appear false or seem to be sucking up or placating. That is why she believes she is more moral, more pure in being brutally honest, why her anger and meanness is justified. She is just speaking the truth.
So you have to be completely honest with her. She will feel respected by that, even if she may not like what she hears. Just know that she hates to face her vulnerability even more, so I think she can deal with it. If this is true, then you must tell her that you are willing to sooth her needs, to be on her team, but you want her to be on your team too. Admit to your selfish interests. Nothing wrong with that. Do not cover it up. Lay everything on the line. Even if what you say sounds a little more like a contract than a bearing of souls, I think it will actually feel more comfortable to her. Don't push for too much in setting expectations and agreements for future actions. Her fears of commitment to becoming more vulnerable could overwhelm her. Getting her to confront her core feelings and experiencing emotion is your main objective here.
I would also say that if she is a physically strong woman, in good shape and with strong endurance, you need to be prepared to take her on physically. By that I mean you must be ready to stay in the discussion as long as it takes, even if you have to stay up and argue all night long, all weekend long. Let her wear down and give in from pure exhaustion. It doesn't matter as long as she can experience surrendering to you without fear of being attacked from such vulnerability. But during this try to find a time when you can hold her. Let her experience what safe surrender feels like. She must EXPERIENCE it. She has blocked her feelings and emotions all her life. You have got to show her what is means to FEEL and that it is safe to do so.
Now, YOU need to be ready for this. Let me HEARRRRR YOU. CAN YOU DOOO ITTTTTT!!??? LOUDER!!!
Burg, I don't think it's realistic to ask for any attitude/belief/internal change from Mrs. HD. I think his only hope for any results is to ask strictly for a behavioral change, and that must be a change that is specific, measurable, clear. IOW he can't ask for her to "act nicer," he needs to ask for sex once a week, or every day, or something along those lines.
Cobra, your plan reminds me of the story about the kid who asked his father, "Where did I come from?" The father tenses up and realizes the moment has come for The Talk. The father has been armed with books and has carefully planned how he will react to this question. He wants to be sensitive, give accurate information about sex, nothing too scary or heavy, and yet convey the beauty and mystery of reproduction. He sits the kid down with the books and begins to tell him the facts of life. At the end, the father is sweaty but satisfied that he has introduced his son in the best way possible to the deep subject of sex. The kid says, "Yeah, I know all about that stuff. Mom told me two years ago. It's just that Bobby came from New Jersey, and I wanted to know where I come from."
You can't know what Mrs. HD wants... all any of us can do is speculate. But we do know what HD wants-- he wants regular intimate contact. If he can get Mrs. HD to agree to that, the trust, the closeness, the affection will follow-- or it won't.
You're suggesting a very convoluted route to a vague destination. Have you forgotten that they were in MC together for a long time? She is an old-timey rabid feminist and does not believe it is possible for a man and woman to BE on the same team. She's a divorce lawyer, so she comes in contact with men at their worst.
I agree that whatever HD does, he must press and not back down. Another reason why I think his approach has to be clean and clear, and not bogged down with psychobabble and FOO stuff. Some people would be receptive to that approach (like me, for instance), but that will just be giving her more opportunity to deflect and distract.
As for getting her to soften up-- remember the "I promise to be a better wife" talk that was forgotten with the dawn?
He needs to state what he wants-- period. Without defending it or getting into a debate about whether what he wants is reasonable. I'm surprised the confrontational approach does not appeal to you.
Burg If he's going to shoot the moon why not shoot the whole moon and ask for what he really wants? I don't know what he really wants, of course, but I suspect it's something like...
Hairdog has no problem implementing boundaries at the beginning of a R and behaving in a way so that the woman falls in love with him.
Again I agree with lil in her response to Cobra. Its not about dredging up the past and causing her negative emotions in revisiting the past. Its about masculine behaviors from here on out. Cobra has combined the two, but he could have had success without the FOO discussions. It just helps him feeling his actions are justified and 'right'.
HD, I really really think you need to prepare so that you don't dig the same verbal pit that seems to magically appear under your feet whenever this subject is broached with your wife.
I firmly believe that the less said, the better.
If you have to tattoo a reminder on the palm of your hand that you will not participate in a reiteration of how you need to accept "no" graciously - how you're not this and you're not that - do not find yourself in the dock once more defending men and masculinity in general and you in the specific.
I'm going to quote some excerpts from a couple of my favorite posters from the MB forum that discussed incalcitrant issues, most notibly long-term, sexually withholding spouses. They address the mistaken idea that meeting emotional needs, cleaning house and buying flowers will get you a revved up wife. They also reference the failure to be honest and the reasons we don't get radically honest and tell our spouse just how much damage is occurring or that you're having the emotional equivalent of a fox chewing off his foot to escape the prison your (rhetorical you) marriage has become.
There may be some discontiniuty of thought since these are snippets I had pulled from multiple posts/threads.
"++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Too often, the question boils down to How can I get her to :
- do it more often - enjoy it like I do - act like - swallow - do oral - initiate -
as though there's some magic spot on a woman that makes them pliant to someone else -- "blow in her ear... they LOVE that.."
Basically, you don't "get" people to do anything. They decide to do it or they don't. You can't meet enough EN's. You can't eliminate enough love busters. You can't somehow manipulate yourself into some position where you get to call someone else's shots. It just never works that way.
MB stresses eliminating LB's and meeting emotional needs in order to build a happy marriage. That's not supposed to create an endless positive feedback loop. MB assumes that you can be radically honest and you are seeking to find mutually enthusiastic solutions as opposed to looking for a manipulation tool (a scorecard) that says "Hey, I did x, y, and z and now you OWE me ..
I think the step that most men seem to miss is the Radically Honest step. It's the step where they say:
I'm so unhappy that I think of leaving you every single day. I feel guilty about leaving the kids, though, so I don't think that's a good option. The truth is that I'll stay because of the children, regardless of how you treat me sexually, until they're either grown or some woman makes a pass at me in a weak moment and I succumb to an affair. Sheila patted me on the arm the other day at work and I found myself fantasizing about what she'd be like in bed. I don't like myself for doing that because it feels like I'm betraying you but I feel SO betrayed by our lack of sexual intimacy that I sometimes honestly wonder whether or not I care how much it would hurt you if I had an affair.
I don't like feeling this way. I'd really like to figure out some way to solve this problem before it turns into other, worse problems like divorce or affairs. Are you interested in discussing that?
Instead, they choose to withhold radical honesty and try to find "methods" to "get her" to do something she clearly doesn't want to do.
What if you spill your guts and your spouse doesn't care about your feelings? Well, then that's good information for you to know to make further choices. Maybe the next radically honest statement would be something like:
I'm no longer wiling to invest time or effort into meeting your EN's because I'm not willing to invest in a relationship in which my feelings and experiences aren't valued. I'm not willing to invest in a relationship that does not include solving problems I HAVE inside the relationship. Therefore, you should expect me to: I am no longer enthusiastic about doing any of those things. If that causes problems for you, I am open to negotiation as long as it involves solving some issues I have with the relationship, too.You can move to higher risk strategies. And, if you have the rare partner who truly isn't worried about WHAT you do or wants to divorce you if you won't meet his/her needs without expecting reciprocation, then you might recognize that is a form of abuse and end the marriage or allow the marriage to end. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
While this next one is referencing affairs rather than ssm(s), there are still valuable lessons contained. Especially note the comment about "overcompliance" and "entitled" spouses. (Emphasis in bold is mine).
=============================
Raise you hand if you realize your biggest contribution to the A was overcompliance...failure to negotiate with a taker...marital inequity...and resentment.
I bet there are a lot of hands in the air.
That entitled WS mentality didn't just fall out of a tree did it?
Now...all of you who still have an entitled WS trying to earn that "F"...has the problem been corrected on YOUR part or are you still overcompliant, settling, and resentfull? [...]
Your boundaries for your new marriage model need to be absolutely crystal clear and 100% predictable.
If you need to be first priority before people, activities, jobs, the cat, the dog, children, parents, the environment, hobbies etc...then that is what you need to communicate and let them make their OWN choice about whether they are willing to agree to these terms.
That is an example of ONE boundary.
Look how much ground is covered just in that one statement "I want to be first priority in my relationship with you". Look how much opportunity for conflict IF that is not agreed on. There are so many things that would love a crack at getting in line ahead of you...and a lot of them are attractive to your spouse...it needs to be a foregone conclusion.
Why not just put your expectations right out on the table?
Could it be that you are still trying to influence and pursuade rather than ASK and risk being told flat out no?
Without a mutually embraced recovery plan...there isn't going to BE a recovery. The end of the affair and physical presence of the WS does not a marriage make. +++++++++++++++++++++++++
Short of abusive situations, sexual issues in the marriae have to be addressed AT THE SAME TIME as the relational issues in the marriage.
I agree strongly with the advice that MrsNOP is giving. Though we would all like to give credit to NOP for his success just because he is so NOP-like, I think that MrsNOP has said on more than one occasion that the fact that she read what he posted here had a huge effect on her. It can't get much more in-your-face radically honest than that.
If anyone of us was brave enough to print out what we post here each day and put it in front of our spouse, we wouldn't be in the situations that we are in (one way or another-LOL). I don't mean to imply that this BB is the problem. If we weren't posting here we'd still be having negative internal dialogues or b*tching to our friends or depending on our therapists etc.
Actually, I was wrong to use the adjective "brave" to describe what is necessary to achieve intimacy. That's part of it but there's something more needed. I could summon up the nerve to once again suggest to my H that he join this BB but........
....anyway that's my problem. Your problem at the moment is summoning up the nerve. Actually, asking her to join this BB wouldn't be the worst move you could make. You could just send her an e-mail with a link. It would all be over real quick-like pulling off a bandage or pressing the button to start the nuclear war.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
"I want a woman who's confident enough to allow a man into her life. A woman who's giving enough to explore my sexuality without judgment. Who's courageous enough to explore her own sexuality without flinching from what she finds. And a woman strong enough to surrender."
That oughta scare her into the occasional shag.
Burg If Hd changed a couple words around in this, I think it would be great.
I deserve a woman who's confident enough to allow a man into her life. I deserve a woman who's giving enough to explore my sexuality without judgment. and I am a strong enough man for her to surrender to."
That would be a great internal voice.
Telling her he wants a woman that fillintheblank, would probably prompt her to reply that he should go get him one of those women.
I also agree with Mrs. NOP, the fewer words used the better. Mrs. HD is a warrior with words in her career-- let's not have a courtroom scene at home.
blackfoot wrote:
Quote:
Cobra has combined the two, but he could have had success without the FOO discussions. It just helps him feeling his actions are justified and 'right'.
This is a brilliant insight, bf. I think you're exactly right. Not that the FOO stuff isn't relevant, but the present moment is more relevant. But I agree that cobra feels the need to "back up" his legitimate wishes (again, very 5-- the 5 is the scientist and always needs "more information" in order to feel on solid ground). I don't think hairdog needs to fall into this trap, that, as Mrs. N put it, appears under his feet every time he brings up the subject with Mrs. HD. FOO or no FOO, what hairdog wants is reasonable, and to open the Pandora's Door to the Past will only give Mrs. HD plenty of material to use to distract and deflect.
And Burgud, everything you say is true. HD could make those statements, and they would be true. But what HD needs is to focus on the behavioral change that he is requesting: s once a week. Telling his wife what he "deserves" will just send the convo down a winding path into the deep, dark, featureless piney woods from whence it will never emerge. She's a lawyer, she knows how to argue, she knows how to argue someone into the ground, to discredit their pov-- therefore DON'T ARGUE with her. Just say what you want and then rest.
So many posts, so little time. Ms.Hdog went to bed early last night, which left me some time to log on and read my thread, something I normally don't do. I read your post, Cobra, and, frankly, it just sapped my energy.
Don't get me wrong: I appreciate your insight. I appreciate you for taking the time to write it. I think, in many ways, you might be right. It's just that, yesterday afternoon I was looking down one road that seemed straight, well-defined, and the potholes/bumps seemed pretty obvious. Plus, it's a road that can be walked in a few weeks or, at most, months.
Your route seems to be an ever-changing path through a minefield. And it is long. It seems endless. It requires some subterfuge, and, it requires me to be smarter than my wife.
And it's not that I'm unwilling to put in hard work. It's just that, it seems all I've been doing is putting in hard work.
What the pre-Cobra plan provides that yours doesn't is a discernible end. Whether that end is weekly sex with my W, or a concrete realization that she is not willing to budge from her POV (and the consequences of that realization), at least it's an end.
Mrs.Nop: I also appreciate you taking the time to collect all the "snippets." The one that has the "I think of leaving you every single day" struck a chord, although I could see W getting off on the "threat" tangent. Yes, the less said, the better.
I will try to comment more, later, but just wanted to post this and to thank everyone for contributing.
