I told him that the difference between a self-imposed deadline on personal issues and a court-imposed deadline on work issues, is that, with the latter, you miss it and you get a p!ssed off judge and a p!ssed off boss. With the former, you miss it and just end up feeling more crappy about what a loser you are.
I have issues with procrastination and conflict avoidance myself. Learning to deal with self-imposed deadlines has been something I've really had to come to grips with being self-employed. Here's a sort of trick I learned to deal with my inner brat and/or wimp. Put "improving sex life" in sort of mental category box labeled either "Self-Improvement" or "Relationship-Improvement". Come up with a list of several other things that would fit under that category like "Get in shape." , "Learn to speak Spanish.", "Spend quality time with my sons.","Resolve conflict with mother." whatever might be a real goal for you. Then block out chunks of time on your calendar to spend addressing your choice of any of those issues. So that way even if you feel wimpy or rebellious about dealing with one issue you will get some work done on another issue and still end up feeling better about yourself then if you had just done nothing. It will help you to get a calmer perspective on your sex problem too if you aren't viewing it as THE PROBLEM.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Lil: I don't actually plan on bringing this up on Valentine's Day nor do I plan to bake her a cake. That was just Hairdog trying to get the class to start snickering, because, that's what I do when I have to stand in front and talk about myself.
My C thinks that, in my cycle of bringing up the sex issue, getting punished for it, being silent, getting frustrated, bring up the sex issue, etc., I have been holding at the "pre-bring it up" stage for so long, that, in his words, I'm about ready to explode. That's why he suggested that I set a deadline. My "message" will be lost or at least partially obscured if I do it in the midst of a ranting rage.
I really appreciate your analysis of my "message." I still think the "what are we going to do about the lack of sex", although a question, is workable. Maybe it's just the prelude, a way of getting a running start into the rest of it. And, the "rest of it" is where the "fuzzy thinking" comes in. You really don't think it's a legitimate goal that she "gets" the message? That she agrees it's a legitimate issue? Are you saying that because of who she is (at least, who she is according to my descriptions of her), or because it's just not generally a legitimate goal to have your spouse "get" something that is important to you.
If it's the former, that expecting Ms.Hdog to ever "get it" is folly, then I understand your statement. It may be folly. But I can't use that expected reaction as a way of avoiding confronting her with this.
I also recognize that words such as "make or break" are, if not explicitly so, imply the threat of leaving. And yes, that would also serve to obscure the message.
And don't assume that I don't like the two "ways". It's not that I do like them, it's that I see that the focus on a schedule is perhaps the only way forward.
My message (bear with me, this is nothing if not a work in progress) is, "we've tried your way to a happier marriage. For the marriage, I have agreed to do many things. Some, I just do because I know it needs to be done. Some, I have really embraced and really thank you for steering me in a direction I otherwise wouldn't have headed. But I feel no closer to you than I did three years ago when we started counseling and C told us that you get your needs met first, before mine get addressed. Now, it's time to try my way. My way consists of committing to a schedule of ML one time a week. Right now, right here, let's agree on a regular day and time."
The language in italics is, now that I read it, optional. I think it sounds defensive. I left it in to remind me that my first inclination is to provide lots of justification when I talk to her.
So, the message, broken down is: We've tried it your way. Now we try it my way. Once a week, commitment.
Everything that happens after I convey that message is just what normally happens after you touch a match to a powder keg. I guess it depends on how much powder is there, as to whether I end up with a little "pop" or a big bang (apologies to chrom).
BTW, thanks Martelo for the book rec. And thanks, mojo, for suggesting the self-esteem exercise.
Your wife is so determined to be in complete control of this situation that she really needs serious counseling. I know you know that...but to be honest, I have really never seen such a person need such an enormous amount of control. She knows it allright...and sometimes she might wish she weren't like she is, but she just can't help herself. Your being miserable, and to some extent her being the same way, isn't going to fix this. Something has to break this, but who knows what. I don't think words will do any good...but I do wish you well. She is the type who will probably have to see you completely withdrawing...and even then who knows. Never threaten to leave unless you are completely willing to do it...she will call your bluff every time.
A friend has been married for 30+ years and lived with this for at least 20 of them. He threatened to say, had affairs, but to be honest WANTED to leave but was just too afraid. He is still married...that was his choice in life. Some stay, some don't...you are the only one who knows how long you can deal with this. IMO, she needs super-serious counseling. Then again, perhaps she just isn't the type who needs to be married. I would ask her what she thinks you should do about rarely having sex again...for the rest of your lives.
HD in one of my "ok I'm going bring up my lack of satisfaction with sexlife talks" I asked a simple but tough question. " I am unhappy with the way things are, what do you expect me to do, what do you think I should do? " Somehow that flipped the script at that particular time. I know I wasn't taking the lead in the relationship in fact I didn't even ask about the relationship at all. At the time it was a 180. And it was something that she had not thought about at the time.
I think the italics is too much you telling MsHD why she should want to be married to you or f*ck you and not enough of you telling yourself why MsHD should want to be married to you or f*ck you. So, I think all the ladies on the BB need to start validating you some more. That way you'll be getting some female validation milk from a safe anonymous source and you'll be able to build your male self-esteem fence which will give you the confidence to milk your own cow because you won't feel like she'll escape on you.
I'll get the girls started.
I would like to be married to someone like you because I think that you truly enjoy the company of women.
I would like to f*ck someone like you because I think that although you are self-deprecating you possess enough essential confidence to make a woman feel safe enough to express her desire. (I'm sorry if that doesn't sound too hot but I'm trying to validate you, not turn you on.-LOL)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It work out well for me, but I can see how it could not depending on what could have been said. Esentially I think because we have had " The Talk" before she was ready to have the same argument. That usually came down to "I don't feel like it". By saying " Ok you don't and I do what do you think I should do? " it kind of pushed her into a situation where I wasn't asking her to do anything infact she could not be part of the equation at all. There really is no good answear to that question and it could push someone into stating their marital sadism outloud (an issue for someone who would be striving to be right acting,thinking and speaking such as your wife).
"I don't know I need you to be patient" was the answear I got it could have been " find a lover ", " leave me alone " , " I don't care" or " just jerk off in the shower " I was asking for brutal honesty. Maybe the words I used didn't mean anything maybe it was just the tone of what I was saying. I think it was just enough of a different angle that it kind of shocked her out of our normal argument pattern.
" I have been patient I need to see effort on your part " she really undestood me in this context, promised to make the effort and has followed through for the most part.
Yes, she is a practicing Buddhist. She uses my (I think very reasonable) desire for sex as a perfect example of an "attachment" which causes me "suffering."
And she's right. Of course, your attachment to your marriage is causing you to suffer as well. If she's a real Buddhist she ought to consider looking for the middle way.
That book Martelo recommended is very good so far.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
You really don't think it's a legitimate goal that she "gets" the message? That she agrees it's a legitimate issue? Are you saying that because of who she is (at least, who she is according to my descriptions of her), or because it's just not generally a legitimate goal to have your spouse "get" something that is important to you.
If it's the former, that expecting Ms.Hdog to ever "get it" is folly, then I understand your statement. It may be folly. But I can't use that expected reaction as a way of avoiding confronting her with this.
Perhaps "realistic" is a better word than "legitimate." It's certainly within reason to expect a spouse to "get" a message, but in your W's case, if you actually set that as a goal, I think you will wind up being sidetracked while she attacks the "legitimacy" of your wanting her to get you. Did that make any sense? And yes, this is because of how you have described her.
I do not think you should go into this expecting to change her mind-- only to change her BEHAVIOR. In the first place I don't think you CAN change her mind. And in the second place, if you did, she'd have too much pride to let you know that you did. (Notwithstanding the "I'll be a better wife" convo.)
Hmmm... that gives me an idea. What if you approach it this way: You remind her of that statement, not in a "throwing it up in her face" way, but in a thoughtful, sensitive way. And then you say, "Here's how you can be a better wife: commit to s once a week. Even if you don't agree that it is a good idea. Even if you don't agree that it is a 'legitimate' want of mine. Just agree because it is a way you 'can be a better wife.""
Then stop. Don't defend, explain, convince, justify. This needs no justification. Clean, clear, no underbrush to hide behind.
And when she says "that's ridiculous, you can't ask me to do something like that that I think is silly and worthless," don't say anything.
Come back over and over again relentlessly and gently to the theme: you said you wanted to be a better wife-- here's how you can be.
Maybe the words I used didn't mean anything maybe it was justthe tone of what I was saying. I think it was just enough of a different angle that it kind of shocked her out of our normal argument pattern.
This is a good point. I guess it's pretty likely that we humans even argue on auto pilot....if you can change the approach, maybe you can get her out of her auto pilot response.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
