I don't know of any other place where people can be so open and honest. Thanks for your reply. I'm going to go back over all of your old posts over the next three or four days and see if anything jumps out at me.
Ok.. I do not really think it is just this unmet needs stuff... I would phrase it as unrealistic expectations and poor communication. First let us take the premise that there is no perfect marriage nor is there any one thing that any of us did or did not do that lead to our situations... it is a series of bad choices and decision by both that have lead us here.
In my case, I married someone who came from divorce and who has two siblings who divorced and married their affair partners... so he does not think divorce is bad.. he thinks it is a valid choice that can lead to second chances! Now when I married him.. he would have told you (with sincerity) that he thought divorce was a bad thing and he was marrying for life... and he meant it.... but subconsciously he, because of his life experiences, felt divorce was an option.
Next, many who are in the throes of an affair.. are looking at things thru rose colered glasses... how you can compare the conversations you have with your 10 year spouse to your new girl friend.. can't don't you remember in the early years of your relationship how you talk about everything and nother for hours? Now conversations fall into ruts.. but so what...? The problem when you are in an affair thoguh is that you compare your new relationship to the old.. as it is now.. old, comfortable maybe.. maybe stagnant.. maybe boring.. stuck in a rut, to the thrill of the new! Doesn't that new TV tempt you in the store? We are very much a me generation who wants it all now and who has an attitude of entitlement... we DESERVe happiness... you see it in the work force.. it used to be that you went to work for one company for life if you could.. now everyone jumps jobs to get raises... or because they are bored or because they think somehow they will be happier at a new job.. maybe less office politics or a nicer boss... whatever the reason... now people think spouses are interchangeable as well... Lets go in for an upgrade! The problem is for these saps the remarry without having really looked at themselves (i.e the WAS...) is that a really high percent of 2nd marriages fail. Why.. well it is not until you are living with that person that you realize... hey, its been a few years.. and the sex got boring.. hey just like in my first marriage... that she got boring... perhaps some of those traits you thought were great end up annoying you...then you add the stress of step families and blended families.. and if alimony or child support is being paid.. the financial burden.. the new wife is jealous of the time and attention you spend with your children.. or even with your ex-wife if you need to talk to her al ot about the kids... the stresses on second marriages are legion... but they are there and they destroy a lot of second marriages... so maybe we should all sit back and let our respective spouses just destroy themselves?
In other words, affairs just happen? It's nobody's fault? I haven't read one reply here where someone mentioned that they might have, even in the slightest bit, mistreated their spouse. Blaming your family's history or the subconcious doesn't hold water with me either.
Nikki. 100% right about affairs not being the answer to marriage problems.
I was simply giving some rationale for the justifications that the WAS's who have affairs use. I never said their justifications were valid and that we should accept them as a reasonable excuse for having an affair.
There isn't one post on this thread that doesn't hold a good amount of truth to it. The fact is, there are too many circumstances to list to entail ALL of the answers everyone here is seeking. I am simply pointing out the most common.
I sense a lot of bitterness toward the SO's on this thread also. Hell, I was there not more than six months ago. I do know that if you don't let go of it, things won't improve.
Resentment, anger, betrayal....you are all very familiar with that list.
We have all been there, for some reason it almost seems 'comfortable' in a way because it gives us justification not to face what happened, and accept that 'my spouse cheated on me', the whole it'll never happen to me syndrome-which applies to way more situations than this as well. I wrote in another thread about how cheating spouses are in essance running away, call it escapism. Conversly, the betrayed spouse that is stuck in the whole list of emotions above, and like you said Greg cannot let go, are also flirting with escapism. It's easier than facing that "it happened to me" and also, "my marriage is not perfect". I also got a valuable piece of advice on that other thread that brought up the fact of unrealistic expectations. That one really describes me, I knew our marriage was not perfect-I was not that unrealistic, but I honestly never thought he'd do that. I told H before he left for overseas that I was not at all worried about him cheating-that I KNEW he would never do. So....did I give him "free license" or what? (rhetorical question....)
I also agree that those must be let go of. True healing of the marriage will not occur without it. I am trying very hard to put myself in his shoes and feel what he was feeling, both before and after A, even though he will not tell me-which makes it all that much more difficult. I said in another thread that I wanted more empathy from him...one way I can get that is to show more. Isn't there a saying about getting more flies with honey?!
Nikki, I do have to agree with you too. We are total products of our environment and upbringing. Of course there are exceptions to that rule, and it certainly DOES NOT justify an A. My H came from D even tho his parents got remarried (had his older brother, divorced-remarried, had H and one more...next month they celebrate 50 year anniversary-no other details known so I'm not sure how it factors in). In my case, my parents are totally devoted to each other. Got married because I have an older brother (lol) but say they would have anyway-and I believe that. They are as much in love as ever and are certainly NOT without their problems, but they work together. They are a great team. That was my example. Fidelity above all else. Committment is not just until you find a better model.
Like you said again Greg, there is no perfect fit, and every relationship is different, I mean, just look at the level of diversity in this country (world...). But in my endless search for how this could have happened to me-so we can fix it-move on, and NEVER deal with it again (i.e., another A)-I am frustrated that it doesn't fit neatly into one or even a combination of common 'themes', I made the mistake in the past of assuming I knew what he felt...I don't want to go there again, but what choice do I have if he won't TELL me? I know, I know...patience right?
I know I must be patient and also be happy that we are together. And please don't get all my sniveling wrong, I am extreemely happy...matter of fact, I'm going on a date with a hot man (H of course) tonight and I will NOT have to cut up 2 plates of food first before I eat, NOT correct table manners every third or fourth bite, and NOT have to worry about 'potty words' at the table (youngest son's favorite word lately is butt-thinks it's HYSTERICAL!)...we're going out ALONE. Yippee! Then we are spending the night together ....ALONE... double Yippee!
I appreciate all the insight...and I will NOT be thinking anything but happy thoughts tonight! I will be exactly who H wants to be with....me-his wife. (course, looking as good as I plan to look-and hopefully a few appreciative looks from other men will help too!!)
Yep, we all have, or are going through all of this. Eventually you have to let it go. This will apply to all of us, whether or not we get back together, and/or stay with our SO's.
I want to make it clear that I am not trying to make global, blanket statements which "always" apply to "everyone". (Except for the statement I made above which I think we all should agree is a necessity.)
There are cases of habitual neglect, abuse, or other mistreatment which would definately make it much easier for a WA. What I am saying is that there are also "many" cases where an affair does just "happen". There are cases on this board where, at least it appears so, the left spouse really has no clue what they have done wrong, if anything. If such a person really has done their homework, soul searching, self analysis, and have been able to be truly honest with themselves, what then is the point of continuing to blame themselves for the breakup ? While we really are responsible for our own actions, we are not responsible for anothers actions or weaknesses.
Let me hasten to point out here that I think there is a difference between what most people would consider to be mistreatment, ie. any sort of emotional, or physical abuse, and just being human. We all have an occasional day when we aren't at our best. Maybe that means that the kids have been little hellions all day, or the boss has been an ass all day, and we're a bit grumpy. Anyone who doesn't have those days, please speak up and we'll all vote you into sainthood.
When a WA decides the grass must be greener somewhere because they've let themselves get into a compromising situation, your bad days are magnified a thousandfold until you look like the biggest jerk in the world and why would they, or anyone else, want to be with such a jerk ? That doesn't mean you actually were, it just means that they have to have something to hang their guilt on, and guess what ? You're the best target.
For those of you who actually were jerks, learn from it. Straighten yourselves out, and show the person you love that you actually can change. DB your butts off until you have become the person you know you should be. When that happens you will be a better person whether your WA comes back to you or not.
I guess the bottom line for me is that we don't need to always "blame" anyone, either ourselves or them. Take your own responsibility for anything you did and get on with life. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.
Sorry if I rambled a bit here, but I hope some of this may help some one.
GBON: You ask whether or not I take responsibility.. or is it all Hs fault plus the SO? Yes, of course.. I was not a perfect spouse... we none of us are. The first time my H left.. we went into deep counseling and put things back together and things were great for a while....I really listened to H and all of his issues... he thought I had too much control over money issues (I had the budget and I paid bills..) ok I turned everything over to him, he thought we were not close enough to his family...Ok.. I started having weekly family dinners and most of our social life became his family.. he seemed to be very pleased with that (and I acknowledgd that I had kept some distance between us in the past ...) He wanted to be more directly involved with the care for our infant son.. ok.. he did the evening bath routine and he was supposed to drop him off in the am... that quickly slipped into whenever he could.. to he couldn't really do it consistently at all..... The point I am making is that on all the items that he raised.. I saw the truth of his issues and concerns and my part of the equation... I genuinely changed where I could...but, nothing truley made him happy apparently.. he just wanted his OW (unbeknownest to me) and that was the underriding source of his discontent. Look, lets face it... there is no perfect or ideal relationship.... sure there are things we can each do to improve a relationship... but there is nothing that we any of us can do to improve a relationship in which there is a third party.. because your spouse will unconsciously be comparing you and your relationship to this other relationship and since that other relationship is new..it seems better adn since it is somewhat hidden, it also seems better due to the allure of the unknown.. it is the classic.. the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.. until you jumpt it and see it is not greener... it is a different variety and it has weeds and crab grass too... but boy oh boy it sure seemed better for a while!
As to animosity for the Others in our spouses lives.. yes, I have a great deal of animosity.... whatever happened to it was wrong.. black and white to have an affair.. whatever happened to adultery was wrong? Whatever happened to common decency.. a sister hood feeling... you know I couldn't go after someone elses' boy friend or spouse as soon as I knew they were married or committed just on pprincipal... and I do feel like if the Others out there had just respected boundaries a little at least some of the temptation would be removed! I do understand feeling tempted.. I do even understand a one night stand happening due to circumstances.. I do not understand having a long term relationship....and yes, I feel that both H and this OW have done me a serious wrong that only they can right by being truley sorry for what they have done... their actions in being self indulgent to the max has led to a complete upheaval of my life and that of two innocent children.... all because they think they may be right for each other... well once upon a time H thought he and I were right for each other.. and he thought we were right for each other enough to buy two homes with me and have two children... we had a long term relationship this was not a mistake... but he was willing to throw it all out for the sake of what may be better.. it baffles me...Over the years I have met men I found attractive and enjoyed lite flirtations with... but I never allowed anything beyond that to happen... oh I wondered at times.. I am human... but marriage was a choice that I knowlingly and consciously made and having made it.. I had to live with it.. the good and the bad and I was prepared to do that... H was not.. he believed (subconsciously) that divorce was an acceptable choice....so now I have to live with it as well... it really sucks.. and I blame society for allowing divorce to become an acceptable choise as opposed to it being what it should be.. a last resort! Sorry just me venting as usual!
ps: I blamed myself the first time h left .. I self reviewed and agonized... and I made a lot of changes... I thought it helped.. in the long run it didn't because H couldn't let go of his fantasy of it being better with OW.. There is truley nothing else I could have done (lost more weight and been fashon thin perhaps...but that would be very superficial and if he left me because I carry a few extra pounds.. tough on him that is really shallow... I could have left him for having thinning hair!)
Bottom line for those of us who truely have looked at our selves and tried to make changes and it appears to have no effect on the other... take heart.. it just goes to show that what is happening is related to something in them not you! That is an important thing for us all to remember... their having an affiar is not our fault! A relationship takes two.. and for everything I did do to make things better.. he neededto do things as well... and you can not make a marriage into a perfect or ideal marriage just by being good communicators and good at meeting the others needs... because you can never be everything to your spouse nor can they to you.... the difference between my marriage failing and someone elses lasting is related to the concept of committment... thru the ups and downs you both have to be strong on the idea that you are committed to the marriage... that you can count on the other NO MATTER WHAT! That is the element that was missing in my H... When I married him I thought it was there.. he said it was there.. we talked about it... but he could not shake loose from his family history... it profoundly effected him... he thinks he can walk away from a relationship.. it is ok afterall everyone in his immediate family has and they appear happier in their second relationships... so he is going to try it... and you know what... I know now that he couldn not have remained married to me and been truley happy unless he tried this.. the problem is that I even if a year from now or however long it was.. he came back.. the damage done is irrepairable at this point... I believe if he came back it would be to stay.. but I don't think I could ever trust him again.... I already gave him a try at coming back and it damn near destroyed =me.... I couldn't do it again....and it just makes me really sad....
SEE!!! This is EXACTLY why I am so dam scared. I know I am 'what iffing' here...but I do not see my H as being any different now than he was before the A-he still is not able to open up to me, like I thought he used to be able to do, and explore his emotional state that led him to betray us.
We are buddies, get along famously most of the time, sure we have our differences (we call them snits) but we overcome them by seeing the humor in them. Humor helps quite a bit. BUT-this is where I saw us before the A. Now, there were a lot of contributing factors-we'd just moved, I went back to work, he went overseas for a year...ok, so the solution to that was no more long-term separations, fine, we've both agreed to that. But if I don't know what else contributed, because he cannot tell me yet, then....? I am starting to feel very uneasy. I have come this far and do not intend to give up-not at all the point to this post here.....so what IS the point?!
I fear that eventually he will be compelled to do this again-sometimes he is so distant I flip out wondering what he is thinking, if I ask he says 'oh nothing really', if I don't ask...he says nothing. It is sometimes disheartening that no matter what I try-and even when I try nothing....it does not change. I cannot help him fix this, like he asked me to, if I don't know what is broke. What if maybe nothing is broke? Then where does that leave it?
I need a good dose of patience.
H is going away on a trip tomorrow thru Saturday. I trust that he is going and doing what he says....other people he works with are also attending-it's kind of a big briefing with lots of people...I do not mistrust him in this. He sent me a note this morning when he got to work...I had sent one yesterday asking about our plans and his work next weekend (after Moms day) and he said he want to do nothing but cancel everything he has going on this weekend, and every other weekend and just be with us.
This gives me hope and strength and is a direct display of his committment.
So why am I fearful? Because he said things like this and acted like this before, too.
I just had to get that out, it will stay here-and inside my head.
L: The best advice I can give you is to get into some therapy...read Michelles book.. some of the stuff he hasto work through and you have to let him do it on his own... YOU can not fix it... he needs to look into himself and realize the grass is not greener and become content with what he has... hopefully he will. Sounds promising. Good luck and God Bless. (If you are religious.. pray).
Thanks...Yup...doing it all. (yes, even the praying, I have found a strengthened relationship with God helps)
Matter of fact, just made another appt with C for next week. At his suggestion, we have been going since Dec. Every two weeks for about the first 8 sessions, then it's gone to every 5-6 weeks. C has SBT ideals, has read the DB book and believes in it's value-she also is saying we are close to "firing" her, as should be our goal.
I know I need patience. He has to work through it and I have to let him. However, I don't think he wants to work through it, he'd just rather forget it. He told me last weekend he didn't feel any loss/miss her/feelings of 'hard to let her go' etc, and didn't feel anything but relief when he cut it off with OW because he wanted it as far behind him as possible. (I asked these questions directly-I have been wondering for some time, and brought them up in an offer to help him through that pain-to which he says is none)-yes, this made me HAPPY!
I told him I appreciated his honesty.
I suppose this is my hurdle to overcome now-the whole idea of why, what went wrong and how to fix it to recognize and prevent it in the future.
It's frustrating tho, 'everything is fine/ok/great' when really underneath, it's a nightmare. This is how our marriage was before(?), things were not dealt with, the larger issues not addressed and he admits it's easier to ignore them-but when it comes to a head...watch out. I just don't want to go there again, I don't want that this time.
Or....are there some times when there isn't a why? Isn't anything to fix? Nothing to prevent? (gee, that sounds a whole lot like trust in the marriage-and that's what got me in to trouble last time too).
I'm beginning to wonder; did I make up this whole A or what?? (If so, I must really be some kind of sicko.)
