My W and I have been going through hard times (see Confront her... here for details). This post is just to ask what you think of her ideas for a divorce:
o she wants to hide the D from my parents, in their 70s, to protect them and so that they have a good image of her. Is this right? It feels wrong to me.
o she wants the kids (s13, d8), she and I to still take vacations together, which seems unrealistic to me. Is it?
o she wants us to maintain our social circles, partly at least for the kids sake, so that the 4 of us still go to parties and similar together. This seems like not paying the bill to me (even though she would be moved out and be free to do what she wants).
o she wants to keep our house here and work in the garden, even though we would be divorced. This seems unfair to me, who might not want to see her much anymore.
What do you think? Are these ideas reasonable? After 3 years of abandonment and a now one year old affair (she and OM), I'd finally like some clarity and space (either we are together or we are not), and the above offer none of that.
Grateful for your thoughts (should it come to a D, it'd be nice to have defined the arrangements beforehand)
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Luke; No, this is not right. It should feel wrong to you. Where are you at in all of this? Are you done? If you are I would tell your W this is unacceptable, and then tell her what you want.
On the other hand, if you are not done, I would tell her this would be unacceptable, and then tell her what you want and why.
Sorry, not much different I know, but after 3 years, and 12 mos w/ OM, I think you have to dicide first what you want for you, then see what it would take to get there.
Is it time for beyond the last resort? I would think after all this time something pretty drastic is going to be required to shake up the dynamic. Maybe?
Luke, as you know, you and I share somewhat similar situations. My W wants to stay together as H and W, carry on her A, and keep it all quiet to spare the kids! These are my thoughts: - If we stay together "just for the kids" I am unable to have any kind of meaningful R with anyone else. This is so because otherwise I would be committing adultry, which is a very bad example for my kids. -We are teaching the children that what they percieve as being love between their parents is actually a sham. So what they are going to base their future R's on is untrue. So, how do they guage what real love in a R is if this is what we are presenting them with. How is this "sparing the kids"? So, how does staying together for the kids, your parents or anyone else make sense? Beats me. My W says she isn't happy living this way but that's what she chooses to do! Go figure. I hope my thoughts are of some help here.
My x wife said similar things. The vacations, still holding hands and dinners. Nothing will change. It is just part of the lunacy that you will hear and see. For a brief moment in time, I almost believed it. You already know how to handle it if/when the time comes.
It seems that things went downhill in your sitch...I'm very sorry to hear this. However, a few questions, if you do not mind - What did she specifically say in regards to your finding the note, the book, and the phone calls? Did she admit anything, or simply deny it all?
No, her idea of the future living arrangements is totally unacceptable...much less, horrendous to do. That will last probably, at the most, one month. The impact of that arrangement will do more harm than being separated from each other, as far as the children are concerned.
As far as living that lie, the stress of it will be quite tremendous. Her need to "save face" is stronger than her want to repair the issues in the marriage, which seems so ironic. What has your counselor suggest in her absolute refusal to attend any sessions?
I had to pop in and see how you were doing...missed the great descriptions of your country. Things are fine at my end...although, saturday, someone tried to hack into my computer...the protection I have is excellent.
How are you doing? I meant to email you, but I was really busy. I'll try later...good to see you posting, Luke is in great hands with you and Whatisis...just keep responding with him...please.
It is wonderful to hear from you – I was missing your wisdom and presence here. I am glad to hear that you are doing okay.
Yes, things have turned darker again, though the last few days have been okay. Somehow the bomb drop is usually followed by relative calm, maybe the aftermath of a strong emotional release.
To answer your questions: W didn’t say anything to my statement that I thought she was having an A, after I cited the evidence of her secretive phone calls. I didn’t mention the note, as it seemed enough to say how hurt I was by what I thought was going on, that it was the worst sort of violation I could imagine.
This was part of a longer statement on my part the morning after the bomb, which had the following parts: Papers – if we get divorced, I want this formalized on paper for legal reasons. This got a rise out of her – “you are getting revenge with this – isn’t an agreement between the two of us just as good?”. Vacations – I said I wasn;t sure vacations together would work. She said it had to – that we could still be friends… Kindness – I have been kind to a fault, in my opionion, but I told her that this would stop somewhere, that I would then cut off contact as much as possible. She said that this wouldn’t be possible, that I had to bear it, that life was messy and painful etc. Separation – that I wanted as much separation as possible if it came to that.
She asked me again this morning if I knew when I would be travelling, this to plan her trip to Germany. I believe this is to see OM, though she says it is to help a girlfriend move out her art things from an art studio. Not sure how to react to this situation – put on a happy face? I suppose I have to still.
We just had a lunch together which started with a strained feeling, but I defused it with small talk. She even asked me to bring a camelia back with me from Califronia, so at least the garden seems to have a future… The defusing seems important, though small talk is just that, small.
The evening after the bomb drop I made a point of being vivacious and (hopefully) funny when visiting friends (our whole family,with their whole family) that evening. My wife had said I somehow wasn’t fully alive, so I made a point of contributing to the general merriment.
W also said that for her marriage is outmoded – some tribes apparently have the woman sleep with as many men as possible, as they believe the are producing a pearl in the woman’s womb, and so building it up with their semen. She relativized this by saying that while I wasn’t’ the right man, maybe there was one somewhere. Lovely talk.
The counselor visit is tomorrow morning. On th agenda is an introduction and analysis, producing maybe a first thing for me to do. Maybe my W and I having taken the Meyer-Briggs personality test will help. I am INTJ and she is ENFP, with the biggest difference between us in the introversion/extroversion part.
I just heard a documentary on the BBC about two blind people that got married in Jordan, from which one thing struck me, namely the idea of challenging each other in a relationship. I didn’t place challenges on W – maybe I should (have) – not sure if starting now is a good idea, and also not sure what should be the subject.
The lake here froze, finally, last night. Now there is nearly perfectly smooth , snow-free ice in front of our garden here, and the remaining ducks slide around and shiver. If this cold weather (0F) persists, and it doesn’t’ snow, then it will be great for long distance skating, which is a wonderful part of winter here. We are on the same water as Stockholm, so I could in theory skate to the counselor tomorrow ,but it is 50 miles away.
On a positive note, we are having a masonry heater put in, which came in a bunch of banana boxes. After unpacking these, I took them to the dump, and my W didn’t’ say anything about how useful they would be for moving…
One more note you might enjoy – this from my blog - Snow here, finally, so much that I had to shovel. People are outside, enjoying the first real day of winter, the snow plows make their rattering sound, an old woman goes on cross country skis over the wheat fields
Nice to have you around –
Best –
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Thanks for all your thoughts. Yeah, my gut reaction was also that her vision is wrong and would be unfair to most of those involved - yes, it did feel wrong, a neither here nor there idea – and that somehow she was getting the most benefit from it. The kids would be “protected” with a lie, I wouldn’t’ get the space and relief I need, my parents would be deceived (she motivated this with “they are old and we should not put stress on them”, and “I know your dad would be sad that our M failed, and would blame me (W)”), I wouldn’t’ get any comfort from my unknowing parents, and there would be continual stress and deception when we are together with others (or maybe not, as I imagine the news of her having moved out would get around).
What I would like is peace, somehow, be this by gettng back together, or by a clean separation. I am willing to give it some more time, but would certainly like a resolution before I turn 50 in December. I am working physically on myself, put money and energy into our relationship and my PMA, and now am willing to try an emotion/personality makeover with the aid of a C, if such a thing can be done. This seems like a good faith effort to me, but maybe that isn’t what finally counts…
For the moment I prefer to lay low with the relationship talk, as it still is too much of an open wound. With some time and distance (I could even do this by email from the states, where I am in 3 weeks), I hope we can talk more calmly. Myabe email would have the advantage of being less ‘live’, with calmer feelings? (One thing I dread is the feeling of "she no longer cares, as she doesn't nag me anymore, the relationship doesn't matter to her any longer").
Today she ordered seeds for the garden, so there is a future there at least. Not that I want to see her in the garden, if she has moved out.
She has had a mostly EA with OM, as he lives in Germany and we are in Sweden, some small comfort, but yeah, 12 months is a while already, and I don’t’ like her having secret phone calls. Now she wants to go to Germany when I am finally back from my two business trips – a sinking feeling – to which I am not sure how to react outwardly. Do we have to grin and bear all this pain to have any chance at winning our spouses back? I told her that my patience and kindness would reach a limit sometime – she said “good, I want you to be yourself”, whatever that is supposed to mean; I am always myself, of course, even when I am controlling my emotions.
Yes, peace would be wonderful to have, even if it has to be without her –
Cold again, about 20F, the lights on the bridge make diffuse stripes on the ice, an occasional car goes this way or that, but you don’t hear it, with all the snow around, a winter evening in Sweden –
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Your wife can dream whatever she wants about divorce, but the reality is going to be very different. Since she is pushing for it and thinking she might want to be part of some tribe where women sleep with multiple men to create a "pearl" in their womb (there are also canibal tribes in existence, does she want to be part of one of those too?), then you might want to start considering what might be best for you if a divorce goes though.
1) Your parents: If she's no longer your wife she is no longer "legally" part of your family and has absolutely no right to tell you what you can and cannot tell your own parents.
2)Vacations: That's ridiculous! You wouldn't want to upset or make the new girlfriend jealous so you'll be taking vacations with your girlfriend (or just you and the kids together).
3)The house: Who owns the house? If you own it jointly and she can buy our your half of it I'd say fine (especially for the kid's sake). If not you may need half the equity to purchase new living space. (Or maybe you'll want to buy her out?).
In a divorce you have to look closely at the laws and determine what you'll need. Think about yourself (and the kids too). Yes, you'll be "friendly" for the kids, but that doesn't mean you give up your life and what you are legally entitled to if there is a divorce. Don't agree to anything until you've researched it or spoke with an attorney.
I was in divorce proceedings for six months and even though I DBed, I still did my best to make sure things would go well for me if the divorce went through. Get the best attorney you can find.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
luke, it is amazing how these bizarre ideas they come up with can be twisted into something logical and workable in their minds! I guess it's called wanting to have your cake and eat it too. They want to preserve all the good stuff from the present situation and have the outside "interests" as well, the best of both worlds. I think they are just so self centred at this time that it's difficult for them to see US and how we might feel about these incredible plans. They have dismissed our emotional responses as somehow being unreasonable. Go figure, eh!
Hey, I can't wait to hear how your counselling appointment goes tomorrow! It's a step in the right direction, good for you for taking it.
I'm sorry...this is really pathetic on her part. However, you just may have to separate for a while. It could be that she is planning to see OM...but, you can't control her in a way to prevent it.
I would at least talk to the counselor first - then - depending on how you feel - start looking into buying her out of the house. She surely isn't too convinced that this EA is going anywhere...however, she wants to date within the walls of marriage...hmmmmmmmmmmm.
You already know she doesn't want to be exposed...that's your trump card...for the future. See how it plays out up until the time you leave to come over here...I wouldn't be too specific when you are returning home...let her wonder.
