Ok... why do all of our respective cheating spouses... (ok.. not all but from reading here and my personal experience) feel like their cheating is either irrelevant or, worse, justified in some way? Some even seem to feel like there is nothing wrong with it!
I am a big one for trying to see things from the other side.. (probably my Libra personality)..so, I can actually understand the mistaken affair.. (the one night mistake), I can understand due to close quarters with some one... thinking an feeling you are in love with them.. and again, it slipping into a physical affair... but here is where I disconnet....If I did that... I would feel SOOOO guilty, so bad about the harm inflicted on my spouse because I know it is wrong to have an affair... even if my spouse was a wife beater or a horrible H, it is just wrong to sleep with another while married.. that is just black and white.. no shades of grey! With kids involved.. again.. no matter how justified I felt because of the neglect of a spouse.. I could not imagine feeling incredible guilt about breaking up the children'sfamily unit.. their way of life and inflicting.. imposing another way of life upon them... so where do these people GET OFF being so arragant... being so sure they are right for what they have done and are doing? Where do they get their certainty of direction from? I am so far along in my process.. I am just waiting for a order to be entered and if he asked to come back.. I would at least think about it... put things on hold due to the number of years we had together.. due to our childrens welfare... I mean this is crazy! whoever came up with the idea that divorce was a solution to marital problems 9except for abuse)..was crazy! It just opens up a whole can of another wormsd! sorry had to vent!
I think they feel justified for a number of reasons. First off I think they being with another person gives them a (false) sense of purpose and a sense of attractiveness and self worth which eventually starts to fade as new problems arrise in the new relationship. At some point we have to be accountable for our actions and I believe it is they who will suffer for their actions in the futur. Never soon enough by our standards. Last night at Divorce Care, I wittnessed first hand the pain a woman was going thru because she jumped right into another relationship that struggled for years and that has recently come to an end. She can now see that she would have needed to deal with the issues then as opposed to now. *Footnote* 50% of first marriages fail, 85% of second marriages fail, 95% of third marriages fail. Pretty staggering statistics. Secondly, I think they feel justified because at the moment they think they are getting what they need from that relationship maybe because it's new and exciting or because it fills that void that they are feeling not knowing that it is not that, that they need. Happiness starts from within, a hard thing to accept, but a truth non the less. I feel sorry for those who get involved with them because they (spouse) honestly can not offer themselves completly to the other, and even if it takes years to come to a head, it will all the same, at some point. I take solace in knowing that I have remained faithfull not just for me but also for my 6 year old daughter whom I have living with me. I know that I can teach her to choose better options in life if I can present them to her. Lead by example. Your kids will benefit in the end. I'm sure there are a multitude of reasons for their arrogance which I'm sure others will bring to light for you. This is just my take on the situation.
Nikki, I started to reply twice to your thread and deleted it before I submitted. I am fighting to understand this myself. I guess she/he has urges we can't understand. Anyone else who can add an explanation is welcomed.
I believe this involves putting yourself in your spouses shoes for a moment.
The spouse who starts an affair has typically been deprived of their basic relationship needs. These could be attention, affection, conversation (the big three for people who start affairs), etc...
These needs are often different from the needs of the spouse who is being cheated on. Take note that most people's needs change in some way with time. Thus the beginning of problems. The cheated on spouse has probably been trying to fulfill the needs of their significant other, but using the needs that they feel are important, not important to their SO.
Imagine, if you will, being neglected, ignored, verbally abused, etc... for many months or even years by your spouse. You start to long for attention and respect from your spouse, but it never happens (well, occasionally, but not consistently). So you start to withdraw. Over time, the urges to have your needs met become stronger and stronger. Then... you notice the guy/girl you work with seems to be fulfilling your unmet needs through basic conversation. Soon, your conversations start involving your personal life (marriage, dreams, expectations). Wow, you find that this other guy/girl not only listens to you when you talk, but they seem interested as well. You start to compare this person to your spouse, who by now has become a villian in your mind. Not knowing this new person as well as your spouse, you put them on a pedastal, they can do no wrong in your eyes. You start to fantasize about being with this person. This marks the beginning of an emotional affair.
Now that you've experienced a little bit of joy and happiness by spending time with this other person, you wonder why you ever married your spouse in the first place. Now you really shut down towards your spouse. You wonder how you could possibly be in love with your spouse when you have strong feelings for this new, exciting (and I emphasize the NEW and EXCITING) person and relationship. You begin to convince yourself that you have a natural born right to be happy (which by the way, you do) and you must do whatever is necessary to achieve this happiness. The quest for happiness is a very POWERFUL force that causes people to become "takers" instead of "givers". So, you start to take more than you give, which includes continuing your inappropriate (inappropriate meaning that your intentions are not of moral standards) relationship with the new person that seems to be fulfilling your needs (not all of them mind you) and making you happy. JUSTIFICATION #1: After all, what's wrong with being happy? So, you decide, if you haven't already, that you are going to exit your current relationship with your spouse (either emotionally, physically, or both) and make a go of being with this new person. JUSTIFICATION #2: After all, what's wrong with being with this new person when your relationship with your existing spouse is dead?
So, your spouse finds out that you're seeing someone else (CHEATING) and they cry, beg, plead, call you names, blame you for the breakup of their family, etc... You now think to yourself, damn, I've made the right decision to leave my spouse, look at the way they're acting. I don't want to live the rest of my life with that person. JUSTIFICATION #3: After all, they are not only out of control, but they want to control my life as well.
There are more justifications, but these three seem to be the most common.
Of course I'm not condoning their decision to have an affair, but I do understand why.
Greg
[This message has been edited by gbon (edited 05-02-2001).]
My H feels very justified because he says he has found the kind of love that was missing from our relationship. He blames me for the breakdown of our marriage but he also tells me that it is not because of her that we are separated. She just expedited the process. I think he got very caught up in the "good" feelings she made him feel. I too think I would have resisted because I tend to see all sides before I make a move. My husband told me that he never really thought about what would happen. He is living for the moment and day to day. His children and I are devasted and he knows it but he says his happiness is what is important and we have to learn to live with it. By the way the OW is married with children too and will probably not leave her husband so my H says. He says that he will not come running back even when it ends with her. We have been separated now for over two months with no filing for divorce. He comes over to the house almost every day to see his children and just recently we started playing tennis together just like we did before we were married at his request. Even though his children cry every time he leaves, he still feels he is doing the right thing.
Remember, alot of what you hear is coming from guilt. They probably don't actually believe their justifications any more than you do. They have to keep vocalizing their reasons both to you and to themselves, otherwise they have to accept full responsibility for what they've done.
Strangely enough, I think that the more they care about us, the more they will even try to hide the OM, or OW. They know they have hurt us. They more they care, the more guilt they will feel ..... get it ?
I also think that guilt is one of, if not the primary reason, that they find it so hard to come back to us after an affair. Again, it's guilt. They can't face either us, or themselves after what they've done. Better just to never have to face it. This is why forgiveness is so important if we ever hope they will return. Honest forgiveness both within ourselves, and themselves.
Sorry guys but I can't keep my mouth shut on this one....
(please don't take this personally Gbon because I really respect your posts and think you have a lot of great, empathetic views) That having been said: THIS statement-
"The spouse who starts an affair has typically been deprived of their basic relationship needs. These could be attention, affection, conversation (the big three for people who start affairs), etc..."
makes me angry. I know these ideas are not originally yours as I have read variations of them in a variety of other places. They make me angry because it seems that my H's A does not fit ANY of them. Now I also realize that it states "typically" and not every A is the same and there are always nuances and differences...got it. But it still makes me angry.
Why?
Because I still don't know WHY. I am a very analytical person and the need to know why and figure out things, and dissect things to see how they work, is very strong in me. I am trying very hard to come to grips with the fact that because H doesn't know (or cannot tell me yet) that I may never know either. But to read (everywhere) that these are the 'reasons' for an A burns me up. I do not feel that my H was deprived of his basic relationship needs-neither does he-we have discussed this in therapy-and alone together....HE chose to go overseas against my wishes for that job-we were getting along when he left-AND after he left, we have always been affectionate with one another, communicated (as best he was able-he's always been a 'non-talker'), of the 'reasons', I cannot seem to fit what happened to any of them-even variations of them. I have also checked out the list (on another thread-I forgot whose-sorry!) of warning signs of a spouses MLC, and most of them don't fit either (although ~MLC is about all I can come up with?)...see how this drives me nuts??!!!
I know that I have to let go of my burning need to know. It IS getting better-and less 'ever present in my mind' with each day.
I love what Eagle says tho about the guilt-you are right on...my H hid it from me and LIED and LIED and LIED some more, for almost a year before the truth finally came out.
Guilt is a very powerful emotion. It is possibly what drives me in my 'need to know' perhaps because I feel guilty? I am also beginning to think that it's what led him astray as well-guilt.
I also would like for you to not take anything I'm writing personnaly.
Maybe this will make sense (maybe not):
The three, I'll use the word typical again, most common unmet needs are communication, attention, and affection (not necessarily in that order).
In my opinion, the problems arise when one or both partners in a relationship are not getting their needs met the way THEY would like to have them met. For instance, to me, meeting my W's communication needs might mean sitting and listening to her talk and when it's my turn I talk about work and the people at work. When I do this, I (not my W, but ME) feel like I've met her need for communication and so that is what I continue to do. By the way, that is not how I "communicate" with my wife. On the other hand, my wife is sitting there talking to me and wondering "why can't he open up to me more and express some of his thoughts and feelings to me instead of rambling on about how his day at work went, I don't want to hear that every single day". Does she say that to me, NO. LACK OF COMMUNICATION. So I continue to think that the way I communicate with her is OK. Her main reason for holding back her comments is because she doesn't want to hurt my feelings, but if it bothers her that much, and over time it will, then she needs to speak up about it.
This is a VERY mild example of a simple communication problem, that over time, can become a major issue.
Are you angry because I didn't have an answer for you in my generalized, generic situation post?
Me2, I went through the same thing with my wife last year. We saw a counselor, had weekly OR talks, and it wasn't until we got back together that she said "I felt lonely in our marriage. I felt ignored and neglected and thought that you really didn't love me". Well Jesus, we had discussed these same issues over and over and over while we were seperated and she always told me "I don't know why I'm feeling the way I do" and she denied that any of those reasons mentioned above had anything to do with her affair or the way she felt about me.
Affairs that are more than one night stands have one thing in common, the person having the affair is having needs met that their marital partner is not fulfilling. You fill in the blank and tell me what those needs are.
You say that guilt led your H astray. Guilt from what? I understand H feeling guilty after the affair, but why would guilt have led him into an affair or astray as you put it? Also, why are you feeling guilty? You say your H has always been a non-talker. Does he talk to you about his feelings, dreams, goals, and ambitions in life? Would you like for him to discuss these things with you? Does he tell you how badly he wants (or wanted) children? By the way, do you have children yet? Is that possibly an issue?
Don't take this wrong Me2, I would like to help you. Can you answer the above questions for me? I'm just like you, I need to know 'WHY'. I respect any input you have, it's how I grow and learn to modify my feedback to help others.
Sorry guys, I'm gonna have to differ somewhat from this line of thought, including some of what Greg is saying if I am getting his point.
I don't agree that there is always a missing need in someone who is having an affair. If this were always the case, then spouses who's partners are in the hospital for extended periods of time would always have affairs. Not the case at all.
I think that in many cases, stuff just happens. We/they don't plan it, don't know how to handle it when it comes along, and we/they spend the rest of our lives trying to find reasons or rationalizing it.
I am not trying to excuse myself, or any of the other left behinds, sure we aren't perfect. Neither am I trying to excuse our WA's, they made the choice for themselves. I am also not talking about habitual offenders, but a first time occurance.
What I am trying to say is that no matter who you are, how rich, how good looking, how loving, etc., there is always going to be someone out there that has more of whatever you have. If that person happens to come along at the right time in your spouses life (a weak moment), with just the right line or approach, I would say that the chances are better than even that they are going to fall.
Maybe this sounds fatalistic, I prefer to think of it as realistic. Be assured that I am not saying that this is always the case, just in many cases.
Beating up ourselves, or our spouses, from now on about the why's, the missing needs, or anything else, just doesn't seem to be very productive. Yes, we made mistakes as well as our WA's did. We can't go back and chenge what happened to either of us. We can only do the best we can to insure that it doesn't happen again, and that we provide the best loving environment we can for the future.
If you know that you did something wrong in your (which all of us do) relationship, admit it to yourself and stop doing it again. Forgive yourself and your partner for being weak and imperfect. If you can both do that, then the chances are better that you and your partner can work things out.
Thanks for the insight and no, I take constructive criticism-if you want to call it that-fairly well-had to learn to in a former career field, I was not now/and never were angry with you (Greg) it's anger and frustration at not being able to fit my situation into one of the (many) molds the 'experts' have designed to help us through this.
I will do the best I can to answer what you ask:
"Are you angry because I didn't have an answer for you in my generalized, generic situation post?"
-not at all, as I say above, I realize that not every sitation is the same, and I also realize that what happened is not going to ever be neat and tidyly explained, but more insight would be nice.
"Me2, I went through the same thing with my wife last year. We saw a counselor, had weekly OR talks, and it wasn't until we got back together that she said "I felt lonely in our marriage. I felt ignored and neglected and thought that you really didn't love me". Well Jesus, we had discussed these same issues over and over and over while we were seperated and she always told me "I don't know why I'm feeling the way I do" and she denied that any of those reasons mentioned above had anything to do with her affair or the way she felt about me."
-my husband and I have discussed the very same issues, alone togther and in therapy, and he usually says the same thing, 'I didn't feel that you neglected me/our marriage, the only unmet need that OW was fulfilling was someone to talk to'. We were separated because of his job, but we talked daily on email/IM and at least once a week on the phone. OW was not geographically located with him either-they were never stationed together. He actually started his A before his first trip home, he'd only been gone 62 days, which makes me think he went looking for it. This was late Aug 99, that fall when we would talk (of course I did not know for sure about A-but I suspected, anyway here's an example of our conversations: Me-hi, how was your day? H-fine (silence) Me-what did you do? H-worked (more silence) Me-oh...long day? You must be tired. (silence) And this was not just on the phone but on IM and over email as well-he would forward me things without even so much as a note-or signing his name. I kept asking him to TALK to me...tell me about his day-if he had a bad one/good one etc..if anyone at work had pissed him off that particular day-ANYTHING-what he had for breakfast.... He blew me off continually, once on IM he had to go watch a softball game-said he was going to go to show his support. For some reason, which he claims to not know, he just shut me out - and let her in. He says now that he felt guilty because he was having an affair-so that is why he shut me out during that time. So, OK...got it, but what LED him to that???? I understand the guilt after, like you said Greg, but what got him there?
"Affairs that are more than one night stands have one thing in common, the person having the affair is having needs met that their marital partner is not fulfilling."
-my husband says this was not the case. I do not know what to think. We were not physically together (because of his job) BUT neither were he and OW-they were long distance too....so????
"You fill in the blank and tell me what those needs are."
-believe me, I have suggested every possible thing (including some pretty way-out there ones) and he says 'no that's not it' and claims to NOT KNOW WHY.
"You say that guilt led your H astray. Guilt from what? I understand H feeling guilty after the affair, but why would guilt have led him into an affair or astray as you put it? "
-from leaving me and the boys (we have 2 young boys one 6 last month and one 4 1/2), here in a new state, we moved here a month before he left, new job, new house...no friends. But that was not an issue for me, my dad had us moving around every 3 years as a kid-I went to 9 different schools before I graduated HS. But again, he says he does feel guilt over that, but that it was not the reason for the A and he also says that he knew while he was gone that I'd "handle it" because I am a strong person.
"Also, why are you feeling guilty?"
-for making him feel more guilty by dumping my problems and my bad days on him while he was overseas....but by the time I was unloading on him(around late Sep-Oct 99 due to changing jobs) he was already cheating.
"You say your H has always been a non-talker. Does he talk to you about his feelings,..." -no not his feelings, although he used to.
"dreams, goals, and ambitions in life? Would you like for him to discuss these things with you?"
-we have always had 'our plan' of what and how we were gonna live our lives...talked of growing old together...being there for each other...what we want out of life, but never once has he come to me and said 'gee L I have had such a crappy day-I feel rotten'. -yes, we talk about his day, I used to be in that career so I understand the lingo and how "it is". I enjoy talking with him about that. But as far as personal-OR stuff...he doesn't go there, but I remember a time when he did. I also remember when he used to say 'hello love of my life' and referred to me in that way. It's been a long time since I've heard that.
"Does he tell you how badly he wants (or wanted) children? By the way, do you have children yet? Is that possibly an issue?"
-we decided together to have kids, agreed upon when and how many and how close together. Of course they add stress to our lives, but they also complete us. Sometimes they are the only reason I stay.
We get along great-we are the best of buds-we laugh together and maintain a good united front to the kids, plan for time together, and help each other out (house/yard/shopping etc)...but he will not talk to me (anymore) about how he is feeling-he is pretty emotionless. So I have stopped asking, aside from 'did you have a good day?'. I feel like I am beating my head against a wall trying to get in somewhere he doesn't want me anymore. I have detached, lovingly, from the whole 'feelings/OR' thing because he just cannot talk to me-for what ever reason. I hope some day he will be able to.
I realize how lucky I am that he is here and is committed to our marriage (now) and I am very thankful for that, although still wary. Now I just have to let him come to me with all they why's and how comes' when he is ready. But I will tell you...it is VERY hard. I slipped last weekend and he found me crying. He held me and let me talk. He still said that he 'just doesn't know'. AARRRGGGHHHH!
Geeze, this is getting long! I'd also like to respond to Eagle for a moment;
"I don't agree that there is always a missing need in someone who is having an affair." -I agree.
"I think that in many cases, stuff just happens. We/they don't plan it, don't know how to handle it when it comes along, and we/they spend the rest of our lives trying to find reasons or rationalizing it." -AMEN Brother!!! And not to mention driving ourselves bonkers in the process.
"What I am trying to say is that no matter who you are, how rich, how good looking, how loving, etc., there is always going to be someone out there that has more of whatever you have. If that person happens to come along at the right time in your spouses life (a weak moment), with just the right line or approach, I would say that the chances are better than even that they are going to fall." -wwweeelllllll, ok, but H even tells me that there is no comparison between OW and me, and that she is rather plain, doesn't know if she was the same ~type A personality as me per see, but she lives alone, never married, no kids, good career, around my age ~ year older-so she must be able to stand on her own. (He didn't answer the one question about who was better in bed tho...and I am trying like hell not to infer anything there).
SO WHAT WAS H MISSING????
I am trying to come to grips with that whatever it is, and I do believe he knows, but whatever it is will have to come out when it comes out.
Nothing I have tried works, even doing nothing. So now I'm gonna vent as much as I like here to you'all (hehe) and go on about my life-and try like hell to be happy and not feel shut out (even tho I do and I am).
They say that in order to rebuild a marriage after an A, the couple needs to understand what was missing before the A, and what led the cheating spouse to stray. This way they can BOTH own what they should own, understand and be able to prevent it so it will not happen in the future.
WELL that's just dandy. And where does this leave me?
Bitching here to you all-boy this IS long...and I could continue too....but we got swimming lessons!
I know I have it good (better than some stories on this BB I've read) and anyone who wants to tell me to shut up-have at it!
