WAH left 18 months ago now. I've been trying to GAL. But I must admit, I haven't gone to dark for long. I don't think “going dark” will work with my H. But I think I really blew it by requesting he try to keep an open mind about us. I said something to the effect that maybe whatever he thought was wrong, maybe it isn’t us, maybe it is, but maybe it isn’t. I mentioned about something he wrote on a valentine card a few years back. In his own hand! Was he lying? He said no. I said well how did we get here?, what happened? I want to understand.
I probably shouldn’t have tried to logic it. Feelings don’t logic.
He came an packed up some of his personal belongings (his family photos, and previous to our over a decade M photos, things he's written and favorite books those kinds of things). These things are him, and looking at them and there still being here was.. well they are the kinds of things a person always keeps. He asked me about what DVDs I want. That was nice of him I suppose, but I don't give a hoot about any thing like that. Or any things, it's my H I have missed all these months. Laughing, having the same thought or joke or word come to mind in a situation. I don't know what the heck happened to us. He bought all these things and then complained about the stuff around. I look at his old photos, and things that he collected and likes/liked they are him. He told me he'd come get them later in the week, later is tomorrow. It seemed as long as they were here there was some hope.
I need to know WHAT to do tomorrow. I just have such dread. Please some suggestions on how to handle this.
He says I’m being “passive-aggressive” because I don’t’ want to sign the separation papers he wrote up. He’s telling me what I have to do so we can get a D(cause he doesn’t have grounds). But I don’t want this. So instead of realizing that I want to weather this storm and help him get to a place, to find happiness again, he thinks I’m not moving on out of vindictiveness? Being passive-aggressive? Ouch, ouch, ouch. Who is this man; there must be OW somewhere.
I’ve written, well started, a letter a million times and I’ve been frozen in fear that it will make or break, so I haven’t finished or sent. I should finish it at least for myself. It’s like he’s got some crazy idea about what I think is important, rather than what I love about him. Or maybe he doesn’t, he wants more? than love (cash and prizes) and it's not good enough that I love him for what used to be his sense of humor and what he enjoys, and his jokes, and putting out my vitamins in the morning… I guess that’s not good enough. He can’t or won’t even tell me what is so critical about “the way we relate” and I wish I could figure it out. I’m so tired of this heartache. I think I need to speed-read DR again tonight.
I don't know if I should be here or not or, WHAT? He wants a D, but he has no grounds so if I won't agree to legal sep, or if I don't file on grounds of abandonment, it’ll just be worse, he says he won't be friends. But I don’t want this, I don't want him to have to move, but he doesnt' want to be friends unless I do it his way. So how do I be his friend here?
No children, so I guess in his mind, he's just not happy with me and no reason to stay and he doesn’t' have anything (or at least he says he doesn’t) so I get the apt. And that's it. So much for vows.
I'm beginning to feel like the frog in Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth". That is… if you put a frog in boiling water. It will jump out right away, but if you put it in cold water and slowly heat the water up to boiling the frog is cooked.
Well at least I’m GAL, I played scrabble last night with new people.
So please tell me, what do I do tomorrow? How do I act. How do I love this man? How do I be his friend? I need some perspective.
Present sitch: WAH left 18 months ago now. I've been trying to GAL. But I must admit, I haven't gone to dark for long. I don't think “going dark” will work with my H. But I think I really blew it by requesting he try to keep an open mind about us. I said something to the effect that maybe whatever he thought was wrong, maybe it isn’t us, maybe it is, but maybe it isn’t. I mentioned about something he wrote on a valentine card a few years back. In his own hand! Was he lying? He said no. I said well how did we get here?, what happened? I want to understand.
I probably shouldn’t have tried to logic it. Feelings don’t logic.
He came an packed up some of his personal belongings (his family photos, and previous to our over a decade M photos, things he's written and favorite books those kinds of things). These things are him, and looking at them and there still being here was.. well they are the kinds of things a person always keeps. He asked me about what DVDs I want. That was nice of him I suppose, but I don't give a hoot about any thing like that. Or any things, it's my H I have missed all these months. Laughing, having the same thought or joke or word come to mind in a situation. I don't know what the heck happened to us. He bought all these things and then complained about the stuff around. I look at his old photos, and things that he collected and likes/liked they are him. He told me he'd come get them later in the week, later is tomorrow. It seemed as long as they were here there was some hope.
I need to know WHAT to do TODAY. I just have such dread. Please some suggestions on how to handle this?
He says I’m being “passive-aggressive” because I don’t’ want to sign the separation papers he wrote up. He’s telling me what I have to do so we can get a D(cause he doesn’t have grounds). But I don’t want this. So instead of realizing that I want to weather this storm and help him get to a place, to find happiness again, he thinks I’m not moving on out of vindictiveness? Being passive-aggressive? Ouch, ouch, ouch. Who is this man; there must be OW somewhere.
I’ve written, well started, a letter a million times and I’ve been frozen in fear that it will make or break, so I haven’t finished or sent. I should finish it at least for myself. It’s like he’s got some crazy idea about what I think is important, rather than what I love about him. Or maybe he doesn’t, he wants more? than love (cash and prizes) and it's not good enough that I love him for what used to be his sense of humor and what he enjoys, and his jokes, and putting out my vitamins in the morning… I guess that’s not good enough. He can’t or won’t even tell me what is so critical about “the way we relate” and I wish I could figure it out. I’m so tired of this heartache. I think I need to speed-read DR again tonight.
I don't know if I should be here or not or, WHAT? He wants a D, but he has no grounds so if I won't agree to legal sep, or if I don't file on grounds of abandonment, it’ll just be worse, he says he won't be friends. But I don’t want this, I don't want him to have to move, but he doesnt' want to be friends unless I do it his way. So how do I be his friend here?
No children, so I guess in his mind, he's just not happy with me and no reason to stay and he doesn’t' have anything (or at least he says he doesn’t) so I get the apt. And that's it. So much for vows.
I'm beginning to feel like the frog in Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth". That is… if you put a frog in boiling water. It will jump out right away, but if you put it in cold water and slowly heat the water up to boiling the frog is cooked.
Well at least I’m GAL, I played scrabble last night with new people.
So please tell me, what do I do tomorrow? How do I act. How do I love this man? How do I be his friend? I need some perspective.
Do NOTHING if you are there. Absolutely no helping him, and even more absolutely NO relationship conversation.
But even better...leave. Do NOT NOT NOT be there. You've been ASS-U-MEing going dark won't work. The worl is littered with divorced people who thought they should beg and plead, talk about their relationship, pressure and guilt, be angry, appeal to the love you had, be friends etc.
Tell us why you think he is MLC? Not merely ages, but also behaviour. Since you are on an MLC forum, I will respond as though he is a known MLCer.
MLCers project the fears they have for themselves onto others...primarily their spouse. MLCers are notoriously passive aggressive...so of course he will accuse you of being PA. He is trying to separate or divorce you and you aren't cooperating...your whiny baby is not getting his way, so he's going to say and do things to show you that his way is the way to go. He will try to hurt you through accusations and/or try to anger you. He can then further justify wanting out and get you to your breaking point of giving up.
Right now, you're inside the tornado with him spinning. Step out where you can see the tornado AND the motivations for the odd behaviours. It's much easier to not react when you get IT and stop spinning.
If you don't want a divorce...then do nothing other than everything you can legally do to make it difficult and prevent it. I wanted to say 'fight' it. But only the metaphorical fight...
I contested and Sweetheart called me vindictive...and the only reason he gave was that I was contesting. He had NOTHING to accuse me of, so he went to the absurd. I told him "I'm sorry you feel that way." And "That's too bad."
Sweetheart was tryng to do something against my moral principles and I told him not only would I not help him in the process, I would also do everything within my power to block that process...to stop it from happening...while staying within the law.
"I don not believe in divorce and I am not going to help you commmit an immoral act."
What that did was give a justification for my legal action of contesting that he couldn't get around. He couldn't use that and accuse me of being vindictive AND believe his accusation. I stayed firm and repeated that phrase on several occasions so he saw my consistency.
Validate his FEELING. But validation is not agreement.
Now the next step for you is to get back your power. You are allowing him to threaten you. He knows what you want and is threatening to take it away if you don't cooperate. Friends do not commit immoral acts against one another, friends do not divorce each other when one party doesn't want a divorce...without working on the marriage first. Don't accept his measly crumb offer of friendship and nothing else.
Take back your power and hold the exact same thing over HIM. This is difficult and you have to read your specific situation to judge whether you should do it or not. Sweetheart was always trying to do things with me and wanted to be my friend. I told him "I am not your friend right now and I will ONLY be your friend within a marital contact. I am your wife, when you treat me with the appropriate respect of that position, we will be friends."
DB'ing advice is often to act as if, be friendly and be his friend...reconciliation starts with friendship. Yes, act friendly...that means act happy and as though you have a life without him...you personally are doing well. Reconciliation does start with friendship...so when you are reconciling you can do that.
I have a friend who doesn't post here very often...never lately. But we speak on the phone. She andher husband are very friendly with each toher. they joke all the time and are always having family activities. They are even going to counseling...though we're not sure he gets that it is marriage counseling. Right now he is content with how things are going...he has his OW, his own apartment and a great relationship with his wife. She dotes on him when he's around, laughs with him, cooks dinner, goes to the movies...not dates, but with the two kids. I asked her about this and she mentioned that the books talk about being his friend. This shows him she is fun to be with and allows him to see her positive changes. YES, very true.
But if he's satisified with that, take it away so he misses her. Le him find out what it is like without YOU. Give him time, PLENTY of time, to miss you. It is okay to let him know you are upset--not satisified or disapproving of the situation. You can be those things without being angry or clingy.
I don't know if you se yourself as clingy or not. But his offer of a crumb of frinedship shows me that he probably feels you are clinging and this will get you off his backl. He's going to take away your last crumb if you don't give him what he wants...that means he has the power.
Turn the tables and tell him you not only don't want the crumb, but you won't accept it and that you REFUSE to be friends with him...not if he divorces you, because that feels vindicitve...it's a punshment. "I am not [use present tense here] your friend outside of a marital context."
Quote: He can’t or won’t even tell me what is so critical about “the way we relate”
What male can...relating is female verbage. And if he's MLC, he's not at the top of that problem, so get off the ladder. If he's MLC though your marriage wasn't perfect, it wasn't the problem. Though you aren't and weren't perfect, you did nothing wrong. This is not about you, it is about him and going dark will give him space to deal with his demons.
And for awhile at least, he may appreciate it if you go dark. He doesn't feel he has breathing room. He is busy trying to control you to do what he thinks he wants. If he feels he is forcing something from you...such as space because you are clinging, do you think that is going to be a positive memory for a return later?
No. MLCers are often relieved AND angry when the LBS goes dark.
Why do you think going dark won't work...because he will get angry, or because he will like it? Both have benefits. You are not his beck-and-call-girl and MLCers want the wife at their disposal--ironic term huh? He may get angry...so what...that merely shows you that it's working...he wanted you available. So don't cave to the anger...and show him where to find YOUR power.
So what if he doesn't get angry, but likes the dark. WHEW. That can be better for his growth. He is relieved at the space...and this shows that he probably did feel smothered by your clinging. This man is not able to focus on himself right now because he's too busy fighting you.
Yes, contest the separtion and/or divorce. Do this ONLY through legal action...refer him to the lawyers and blame the lawyers...do not discuss the legal case...say it is on your lawyers orders. And if you don't have separate lawyers...go get your own lawyer. I didn't have a lot of money...but my marriage was worth it.
Now during th Dark...Get A Life. Whatever sort you want. For me that didn't involve going to parties and bars or much socializing. GAL is finding a life you enjoy...whether that is inside the house reading or away from home with friends. Mine was about reading--which was the same as my previously life, but I added Spiritual Development classes. My reading was also different. I read about MLC, Depression, Astrology, Hypnosis, Spirituality, Meditation, Alternative Healing...such as Reiki, Recovering from Infidelity...I immersed myself as student because I enjoyed it...thus it may have seemed boring to others, but it was GAL for me AND because it was benefical to helping my marriage. I learned about why my MLCer acts and says due to his Depression and the nature of MLC.
Find a hobby or five. And don't omit it because your MLCer wouldn't like it...though consider hobbies you would both enjoy...him doing or reaping from the benefits...ie you can paint and he benefits from their display.
You need to grow also, and the DARK is fertile ground for growth.
Yu act and love hi and be his friend by leting go. Tha tis what a true dfrined would do. Be his True Friend, not his Buddy. Buddies come with no attachments, no commitments...and will not help you in a bind...Buddies will discard each other when things are difficult or one needs something...even something minimal. True Friends can do Buddy things together, but thre is an understanding of commitment. Buddy has no emotional attachment.
Let him go. Be gone tomorrow. No where to go? Go to the library...don't tell him where you went...you were busy, had plans etc. You can do this, and it will be easier if you let him go so that each of you may find/discover yourselves.
Thank you so much for your response. I've been afraid to do anything really. Yes he has been offering me crumbs. He's been doing things like walking the dog when I'm working. And he does things for our neighbor which gives him an excuse to come by. Even when I don't ask him to. I haven't changed locks or anything, I've pretty much just let him come and go as he wants. I'm not sure if it's MLC because he's early 50. We have so many factors that would say... this couple has a better than average chance of lasting. But I do know that he has been unhappy. It's complicated by many factors I won't go into here. I miss talking and so much, ad doing things with him, I miss my honey. But it's true, this is certainly not the M I want with him not here. I brought him some candy that he likes (ed) when I brought him his mail one day (not very DB) and he brought it back with last years xmas present with a note that he doesn't want this he wants D, until I'm reasonable we have nothing to talk about. Reasonable is only doing it his way. I think maybe I wasn't there enough for him, that I've given him too much space. It's not about D not being an option, it's about being with him! I dont know what I think anymore. I've tried to be supportive in his projects and given him space and we are further and further apart. I have so much work to do and I can't think. I've been depressed myself, deaths in both our family/friends, terminal illness in my family. I try to keep that mustard seed of faith though and count my blessings. But I still ache I've been frozen in some ways. I want to understand how to truly be loving to him. I am working on the GAL. I"m afraid my inaction has been bad. But you have made excellent suggestions and I am going to re-read your post. Thank you so much.
Oh shoot. I went out for a little bit and when I came back he was here. He took more than he said he was going to. Whatever on that. I was going to go out again anyway, but before I could he said "can't you just go get some coffee or something". So I left and took went to take care of something else. I called to see if he was still here. But he was taking things out the side, so doorman hadn't seen him and I didn't realize when I called back to find out if he'd left yet.
He was still here when I came back. I just dont' trust anything he says now as far as his plans, so there's no point in asking. I don't even believe he's living where he says. I'm sure he's in some sort of legal protection mode. Though he acts like he's got nothing to protect. He kept asking so what are we doing. I said I'm not ready to decide right now... something like I know things can't stay the way they are. He just kept pushing it, asked if I was talking to anyone (lawyer) and I said something about having work to do. I guess he was trying to make me cry or fight. And he said I was playing mind games, and that it wasn't right I was holding him hostage? And again that I'm being passive-aggressive??? Playing mind games??? I said well now I know what your're (he's) doing cause I wouldn't have thought of that. II feel physically ill and sick to my stomach. Somebody is feeding him some psychological crap about where I'm at. I'm sure he's getting lots of leave his unhappiness support from whoever he's talking to like our divorced neighbors and all his divorced friends or the OW.
It just didn't go well at all. Worse than the day he packed the boxes. He's just so hard and feels like a stab in the heart.
Oh God I feel so awful. I wish I'd just stayed away. I can't stop him anyway. I miss him, our love, our marriage. I'm working on my mustard seed of faith right now. TYping with my eyes closed. So I hope you'll forgive the spelling errors.
Please post, please, I need you here, somebody.
I'm going to go back to work now cause I have a deadline. I'm going to have to fill my evening with gym, and a movie or something.Cause I can't take the ache. But back to work now.
Believe, RCR told you about as well as it can be told what you need to do. This man CONTROLS your life, completely. He is driving your every mood, attitude, emotion...
You cannot let that be. You will protest, "But I LOVE my husband and I MISS my husband, and he was my BEST FRIEND!" Welcome to the club! There's not a person on this board who cannot say the same thing.
H left 18 months ago...sounds like you've got some work to do on separating yourself from him. Sounds to me like he's almost hostile towards you, which would seem to support RCR's suggestion that he may feel smothered by you. Letting him go is for BOTH of you. He gets some room to think, live this wonderful life that he sees in front of him. You get to NOT depend on him for every happiness in your life AND you get to NOT be present for all those lovely actions that break your heart all over again.
You're playing right into the scenario that does two things, neither of them good. One, you run off the spouse because you convince him through your desperation that he was right to leave in the first place. And two, you drive yourself into a despair and depression that makes you completely useless to yourself, and unattractive to him.
The suggestions that you will receive here are counter-intuitive (I believe I have to credit RCR with that one, I think she's the one who first said it to me), meaning that they run contrary to what our rational thoughts tell us need to be done. Let him go to get him back. Move on without him to make him want to pursue you. Be happy to keep from being so sad. None of it RATIONALLY makes any sense at all. So why does it work? Because our spouses behavior and mental state is NOT RATIONAL EITHER! Why do you think so many on these threads refer to them as aliens?
I don't know much about you, and there is not much information shared in this thread. But the fact that you stand for your marriage after 18 months of separation make me think you must be a pretty strong and honorable woman. It's time to leave him alone and start caring about yourself.
You GET A LIFE to show yourself that you do not NEED your husband to have a happy, satisfied life.
You DETACH so that you're not getting beat up constantly by his ridiculous and hurtful words and actions.
This stuff is for YOU, not HIM. And you need to start doing it. If the extent of your get a life after 18 months is that you played scrabble with a few friends, then darling you need to visit some of these threads and see what getting a life is REALLY about!
Come on girl! You can do this! NO ONE should have so much power over any other persons life. Ever. Period.
Stand up for yourself by caring for yourself and letting this unhappy man go enjoy his newfound life. You might just surprise yourself with how good you will eventually feel, and maybe even how curious he starts to become.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
If I made it sound like the scrabble was the only thing.. then that's not exactly right. I've been going to the gym. (Lost weight, I was overweight (15lbs), not obesse but definately overweight. Now I'm down to same a few pounds more or less as when we married. I can fit into a skirt I bought on our honeymoon.)
I've been going to lectures and some volunteer groups, movies and such. Work, I have a writers group.
Still, I feel like such a fool!, and I'm because I've only been getting the just get the D message from our D happy culture, they think thats the answer, so I've just tried to stop talking about it. Everytime I think I'm in a reasonable stable place and start doing more GAL things, seems he's upped the anti. I can't see that anything is going to effect change, he just wants the sep. I guess maybe he's got OW breathing down his neck or such. I don't even know if there is a definate OW. It's a guess.I just don't think someone as attractive and personable as he is will be alone at all. Not when I've seen overweight, sick, crazy older men with no money being fawned over by women. Even here it seems more men reconcile with WAW than the reverse. I'm not feeling very optimistic right now. I wonder that WAH is up to something more than he's saying right now. So I'm going to give it to God, and look for your and other responses. And go back to work and check in again later. Got some biz to attend before 5:00.
This may sound very callous and I'm sorry for that.
Your husband's possible OW does not matter. It doesn't matter to you. You are a beautiful strong woman, able to accomplish her goals, without some crutch of a man around to hold onto.
That is a very attractive quality. However, for it to be noticed, it must be believed. It must be believed by YOU!
Head high, shoulders back, chest out. Away you go. You can take on the world, and you will if you have to.
Let the Passive Aggressiveness accusation roll off you like water off a duck's back. Treat it like you are a 7 year old on the playground. "I know you are, but what am I???" and "I'm made of rubber, you're made of glue, words bounce off me and stick to you" and if you in your imagination stick your tongue out and cross your eyes while he's saying it, it'll go down a lot better!
So....he wants a divorce! Jeepers!!!! What a surprise!!!! They all do. Everyone of them. And they all have friends who may or may not be pushing them. Everyone of them. And they all have OW who may or may not be pushing them.
The only thing for you to focus on or even think about is you. What do you do for you. If you don't want a divorce, then you don't. When you decide you're ready, you'll proceed. I told my twit of a husband that I was still discussing it with the lawyers. Everytime he'd ask about anything.
"Are you going to pay this bill?" I'm discussing it with the lawyers.
"Why are you being such a b*tch?" I'm discussing it with the lawyers.
"Why don't you answer the phone??" I'm discussing it with the lawyers.
Very general. Very unarguable.
Give it a try. And darkness, sweetie? Darkness will help you so much. It's an amazing tonic for our ills. You'll have to trust me until you try it.
Does this actually work? I mean, Doesn't that sentence just make H angry and defensive? Is it really DR or DB? I feel like it so much conflicting information. I don't want to be on hold for the rest of my life either.
I know a WAW who is now D many years, she tried to get her H to counseling, he wouldn't go, but he didn't want D, she had an A that tanked eventually. They (she and ex) were friends and still are, she (WAW) is "friends" with the him and his new wife. And she says now it's the worst mistake she ever made.
But, ya know, but what the heck, why do I want to be in an advisarial place with him. What the heck is he doing though? All kinds of things run through my head.
I have a friend, I havent' been talking to so much anymore, well not about my H anyway. She told me I should lock him out and forget it, he's not my friend. It's absolutly amazing how many people will support you in D. The whole legal system pushes to D. Maybe I should have listened to her.
I think sometimes we need a separate forum for dealing with WAH. They are a difffernet "alien" I think.
I really have to thank you again for the laugh, I really needed that sooooo bad.
I really want to do what God would have me do. As a friend, what would I say if he wasn't my H?Is that to just let him go no strings, no contest. Let him just stab me and ride off into the sunset.
Maybe that's the best thing for me to get on and not have this pain, I dont' know if it's a solution. I guess I want some hope. But I don't see any. Seems our M is pretty much over as it is now.
Sometimes I get this crazy idea that the "mean girls" (if you've seen the movie) have made it worse (people around him who'd like to see him D, friends of possible OW), or that I've been slandered by them. This goes back to having been a victim of false gossip and disinformation in high school. It really screwed up my life, but I thought that was all past way before I met H. And I was really careful with my heart. I should have been keeping up with something in-between the time he did this back in '03. (six weeks). I had read various DB type info then, and tried to use it. But obviously to no avail. I'm feeling ill again.
Thank God you are here. I just think I can't stand it sometimes, but I know people here understand.
Geez I haven't gotten that work done at all I need to do. Well it's a long weekend.
They all do. Everyone of them. And they all have friends who may or may not be pushing them. Everyone of them. And they all have OW who may or may not be pushing them.