Excuse me for jumping in because I haven’t been part of this forum, don’t know much about your situation other than this thread and I haven’t read Deida’s book yet although I am interested in many of the concepts.
I may be a bit sensitive to the LD female/HD male thing since I think that was a big part of the break up of my best friend’s marriage. I’m not so sure I really believe that my friend is actually LD but at least in comparison to her H she was. And I can tell you that it didn’t help their marriage one bit to have him constantly and consistently telling her that something was wrong with her and HE was miserable because of it. He was clear that she was the one with the problem and she had to figure out the way to address it. It was to a point where she didn’t like physical contact at times because she KNEW what he wanted and it created a lot of stress for her. It wasn’t that she didn’t want him or didn’t want to be held by him but the stress of feeling that she was never quite doing enough for him was hard for her. And in their case it didn’t end in the bedroom, everything about her seemed to bother him and nothing was good enough. Now as someone who was very close to both of them I can say that he was definitely not seeing things clearly. With what I’ve read about Deida’s principles, I would say that the H was looking toward his W to take the initiative to fix everything for him, to “give” him purpose in his life and to give him his masculinity. When what would have been better for him (and her AND the marriage) would have been for him to look at himself and to see what things he could control on his own. And understand that if you spoke to him he would be adamant that he had done all of the work in their relationship and it was all his wife’s fault that things weren’t working. Now I will admit that the wife wasn’t perfect by any means but then again NO ONE is. And some of the great qualities that she has and he took for granted will be very hard to find in any other woman. She actually saw him for who he was flaws and all and adored him! She just didn’t show it in the exact way that he wanted and by the time she realized it, he was closed off to the possibility of seeing change in her and she was definitely changing. That’s the saddest part of watching so many marriages end is seeing that a spouse is really ready to change and wants to but the other has so firmly made up their mind that nothing can be done to change their mind that their W or H is hopelessly LD, insensitive, uncaring, not right for them, making the miserable, not making them happy, etc. Some people act as if it’s someone else’s job to make ourselves happy, satisfied, etc.
What I don’t get about people like you is how things always seem to get to 2 choices that are “conveniently” out of your control. You are unhappy with your wife and the only way for things to change is for HER to change them or you could leave the marriage but that isn’t acceptable either. So I guess you have to sit there in a miserable marriage. WHY? You keeps stressing that Deida’s approach might work but that there is no guarantee. But if you do nothing, I can GUARANTEE that things won’t get any better for you or the marriage. It seems like working on yourself at least gives you a chance.
It is a big pet peeve of mine that so many people abdicate the power in their relationships to other people. Why? Okay so my issue is that I tend to accept more blame for things that probably aren’t my fault and there are plenty of downsides to that issue. But at least I don’t have to sit around and wait for everyone else to fix themselves before we can have a good marriage, friendship, work relationship, family relationship, etc. Maybe there are cases where I beat my head against the wall because it isn’t really all my fault. But I can tell you this that even when that happens and the relationship doesn’t improve, I STILL COME OUT BETTER THAN WHEN I STARTED.
Again I don’t mean to be too harsh but this has become a very personal thing for me because of how often I seem to see this scenario playing out. It’s very interesting but if you look at the happiest people you know I think it becomes clear that they are usually the people that don’t look for others to prop them up. They are also the people that are most realistic about themselves too. They aren’t egotistical and demanding and they aren’t insecure and shrinking.
Wow… Sorry this became kind of a rant. Just venting I guess because it’s still so hard to see my friends’ marriage over. My friend is making the best of her “new” life and is doing well but it’s still painful for her. And I also feel like I lost a friend in her husband. They were always one of those great couples that I could call and whoever answered the phone I could talk to because they were so close to me and each other. Selfishly I feel sadness for myself as well as them. Cannot even imagine what it feels like for children to lose that feeling!
I’d just ask that you be willing to open your mind to another possibility. That you could open your mind and do some work on yourself without expectations about how your wife should respond and just do this for yourself right now. Give it a month or two or however long you can stand it and then see how your wife responds. One question I have about your marriage. How does your wife feel about your marriage? Is she “happy” at least as far as you know? If so, then I especially think it’s your responsibility to try something new. My theory is that the person who has the issue is the one who is most responsible for change. For example, if I hate not having a floor swept and vacuumed regularly then I think it’s my responsibility to regularly clean it and not my partner's job no matter how crazy it drives me or how unhappy it makes me. Sure you could say that it would be nice if they helped out, I would appreciate it, it would show me how much they care, etc. But bottom line if a dirty floor bothers me more than them, it should be my responsibility. (True story because another friend of mine has a husband who hates dirt but she’s much more laid back in that department so he does the sweeping, vacuuming, etc.) My opinion of what’s healthy and what works.
Take all of this for what's it's worth to you. I just remain an optimist that most marriage problems are truly solvable if you're open minded enough to believe it.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Ok, so lets say it is his responsibility for his own happiness. What makes himself happy is physical touch and sex (i.e. he wants a lover). Because of testosterone, changing his needs is NOT possible.
So give me a solution. What can HE do that will MEET his own needs?
First of all I’m no expert in any of this so all of this is just my own opinion and my own beliefs at the moment. And please believe that for all of the advice I am more than willing to give, I know that I could be completely wrong. And also I don’t have any information about your wife’s issues and where her attitude is in all of this. So after all of that preamble, my opinion…
The most obvious is first of all you can take care of yourself physically and that does take care of testosterone issues. Secondly what about doing the same as you would do if you were single? As a single HD, I certainly hope you wouldn’t be jumping into bed on the first date with every woman you dated. And hopefully you would not be physically pawing every woman you met because that wouldn’t work (at least not with a normal woman). Instead you would be concentrating on being a whole confident happy human being with your own purpose and you would work at wooing the woman that you desired and would watch for the signs that signal she is receptive and desires contact from you. You would engage in the simple flirtation of testing boundaries and retreating if you go too far too fast and pushing forward when your advances are accepted. You would be watching and maybe asking for what things are attractive to her. And if you really desired this woman, you would work as hard as you could at attracting her even if you had to sublimate your needs for awhile (not permanently but just long enough to “prove” her worth to you).
Of course I say all of this hoping that you don’t really mean that sex is the ONLY thing that brings you happiness. After all even with my example of wanting a clean floor, I can certainly say that my happiness does not depend strictly on having clean floors at every second of the day. Sometimes other things have to take priority. Then “thrill” of cleaning up after weeks of mess can be very rewarding. And I know I’m different than many because I believe that periods of unhappiness are actually good for our soul. When we learn that we can live and live fully through moments and times of difficulty, we are able to have an even larger sense of well being.
Cemar, trust me after all of the talks with my friend’s husband; I can hear the seriousness and stress of this in your tone. You are at the point where you feel like there is no hope and you cannot see beyond your own hurt. I really don’t take that lightly. The frustrating part is that I really don’t think it is necessary either. I sense in you the say hardness of soul where you are determined to argue for your unhappiness and want everyone to know how miserable you are. But honestly does that do anything to help the situation? I can understand venting and releasing your frustrations but not in arguing so that you are entrenching yourself further in your pain. But that is my opinion and I doubt that all of my optimism means much to you at the moment.
I’m going to list some quotes and I wonder what your response will be to them. I hope you are truly willing to embrace them. However my guess is that these quotes will only frustrate you and for that I am sorry. At the very least the quotes will give you an idea of my attitude.
"Permanence, perseverance and persistence in spite of all obstacles, discouragements, and impossibilities: It is this that in all things distinguishes the strong soul from the weak." Thomas Carlyle
"We are made to persist. That's how we find out who we are." Tobias Wolff
"As long as we are persistent in our pursuit of our deepest destiny, we will continue to grow. We cannot choose the day or time when we will fully bloom. It happens in its own time." Denis Waitley
“Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all.” Dale Carnegie
“What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.” Victor Frankl
I am curious why have you placed yourself in this position of not being able to solve this issue? This is exactly what my friend’s H and for that matter my xH, other friends Ws and Hs have consistently done – they end up arguing that they truly don’t want to leave but that their spouses are responsible for them HAVING to leave the marriage. (My friend cannot even mention to her xH that she is sad about the end of the marriage because he will just go into a rant of how it was all her fault and she was the one who forced him to have to leave. So when he asks her why she is down, she just says she’s okay.) Yet for all of that reasoning very few of them (none that I know if but I'm sure they exist) really have any significant changes in their lives and many are even more unhappy than before. For example my friend’s xH hasn’t dated anyone and from what he’s told my friend (not that she wants to know) he hasn’t had sex with anyone for almost 6 months. So I guess leaving the marriage didn’t guarantee fulfilling that need.
One final thought (Like I haven’t given you enough to think about! Now you probably have an idea of why my H left me:))- Did you notice how you skipped over the issue of trying the Deida approach? An approach that might work versus not trying anything and being guaranteed that nothing will change. Instead you would rather do nothing and be able to blame your wife for the marriage problems. Stop fighting so hard for your unhappiness and use that energy to make some positive changes whatever happens for your marriage.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I can't speak for CeMar, but I can speak for HD males in general in addressing a couple of things.
Quote: ..The most obvious is first of all you can take care of yourself physically and that does take care of testosterone issues.
umm...no. not at all. not even a little bit. that's just plain wrong. we're not talking about an orgasm deficit, here. This is just no substitute for sex with an actual person...one that by willfully and enthusiastically participating is saying "I love you back". maybe thats something that you can't understand unless you take heaps of supplimental testosterone, or are reincarnated as a man.
Quote: Secondly what about doing the same as you would do if you were single?
wouldn't really be a big issue. Being celibate isn't the problem; its being celibate when you shouldn't have to be. Imagine being a diabetic. its not the best thing in the world, but probably not the worst, either. now, imagine being a diabetic, being incarcerated in a chocolate factory. Now, imagine "Eddy Murphy" dancing around you, waving a chocolate icecream cone, taunting, "...I got some iiiiice cream...and you cant haaaaave none...cuz you can't affoooooord it....cuz you're on the weelllll-fare!". get the picture? that's what its like being HD in an SSM.
being single and celibate...wouldn't be so bad, without the constant reminder.
cac4 said umm...no. not at all. not even a little bit. that's just plain wrong. we're not talking about an orgasm deficit, here. This is just no substitute for sex with an actual person...one that by willfully and enthusiastically participating is saying "I love you back". maybe that’s something that you can't understand unless you take heaps of supplemental testosterone, or are reincarnated as a man. I second that cac4, although I don't think one necessarily has to be a male. I see females post something similar.
Fearless, good post overall but about this suggestion of yours The most obvious is first of all you can take care of yourself physically and that does take care of testosterone issues. So if I am 63 and take care of myself 3X in one day I should be not wanting sex with my W? BTDT and I still wanted affection, an emotional bond with my W, the warmth of her body, be with some one I like kissing me, someone I could bring a little joy into their life, :eyeroll: (well my W doesn't like sex that much but she does like the back rubs I give her during sex).
Maybe I could watch some sexy movies and take care of myself. BTDT and it isn't nearly as good as loving and having sex with another person I care about and wanthing her to care about me.
Now, imagine "Eddy Murphy" dancing around you, waving a chocolate icecream cone, taunting, "...I got some iiiiice cream...and you cant haaaaave none...cuz you can't affoooooord it....cuz you're on the weelllll-fare!".
get the picture? ^5 cac4. That is a good description.
Now on the other side, my W isn't interested in sex, well maybe a little, but she certainly wants attention from me. I can be attentive, flirt, and court her just as long as I don't ask for much in return. No she doesn't have much of a sex drive and had some medical problems that decrease sex drive.
The problem for me is I think I am normal so what does a male with a normal sex drive do when their partner either has some medical problems or just doesn't feel that chemical drive?
Just a question. I don't think there are many good answers for some couples. Maybe I want too much? No I guess I am one of those needy guys.
The train is damaged, it doesn't go very often and when it does the ride is short.
I really didn't mean to be insulting. First of all I hesitated posting in the first place because I don't really know anything about the LD or HD issues. Like even from your post I still don't quite understand. I thought the testosterone issue was about the physical sex act. The closeness and intimacy is then part of the physical touch. Those can be separate issues, right? Anyway you really don't have to prove to me how miserable you are or explain in detail the misery of your life. I believe you and it wouldn't even matter what the issue is. I know that people can be miserable about many things that might not affect someone else the same way. I am truly not telling cemar or you or anyone else for that matter to not want sex or to not be unhappy about it. I'm just trying to encourage behaviors that might help someone out of the situation. If I'm not helping at all, just tell me to stop posting and I will. Trust me I definitely doubt whether I can give any useful advice anyway. I just thought I would try and see.
I wanted to comment because I really feel like whatever the relationship problem is for someone, it usually isn't solved by entirely blaming the other person and counting on them to make all of the changes. I thought that the general philosophy of Deida sounds intriguing. It is similar to the DB principle of working on yourself first. Like I said before, I think that working to become a better you is the first step. If it really doesn't work for the relationship, at least you're in a better place. if you don't work on yourself, the relationship won't get any better AND you won't be in a better place. Seems logical to me to work on yourself. Again, I can't say if things are truly hopeless in your relationships.
As I said before, assuming the my friend's marriage has any similarities to Cemar's (which I truly don't know), I know that the constant pushing and criticizing really affected my friend's sex drive. She didn't feel like she could give him a simple hug, curl up to him on the couch, give him a foot rub or anything without feeling OBLIGATED to have sex. I know how much she loved him and I also know that she was sexually attracted to him and did enjoy sex. Just somewhere along the way both of them got their signals crossed and communication broke down. I believe they are both equally to "blame" for the miscommunication. The issue to me is that the H was the one who pushed it to the point of the breakdown of the marriage. He was the one who became sure that my friend was the cause of all his unhappiness. (Of course I don't know your situations so it may not be applicable.) The thing is that the H had a job that had been frustrating and demeaning for over 5 years, he had been gaining weight, drinking and smoking, and on top of his regular job which included 2 hours of commute time he had added rental properties, a local government position, and started a small business. And yet my friend was the SOLE reason for his stress and unhappiness. And believe me I talked to him enough to know that he was truly unhappy and I never doubted his misery. I just don't think he picked the only solution. But he did pick it and I hope that he will find happiness. I'll just say that he hasn't jumped there overnight and that's even with a great new job 3 months ago.
Maybe you guys are right and you've done everything you can and it's just up to your wives. Honestly that's okay if that's how you feel and that's where things are in your relationships.
I guess I feel like you are fixated on specific things I have written and aren't addressing the overall point. That by doing the work to figure yourselves out more completely you leave the door open to the possibility of change in your relationship. Again I don't see anything wrong with venting and releasing your frustrations here. I think that is useful. But by fixating on your issues and spending all of your time trying to prove how miserable you are in your marriage, it seems like you are just reinforcing the negativity in your life.
I wish all of you the best and hope that somehow you will find ways to have great lives and great marriages.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Just to apologize once more for a really stupid flippant comment. I didn't mean that taking care of yourself could come any where near being a substitute for the true act of making love. I just thought that the point was about the physical need. Anyway I have no business talking at all about the LD/HD thing because I don't understand the woman LD thing and obviously I haven't a clue what it is to be a HD man.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Fearless, I see by what you posted, you are a good soul. Almost all of what you posted is right or has the right intention. I would never consider anything you said so far as insulting.
The closeness and intimacy is then part of the physical touch. Those can be separate issues, right Yes they can be and are separate issues, sometimes, too separated where one happens a lot more than normal and the other happens a lot less than normal.
My main point sex is a way of feeling connected and a physical release of sexual tensions. Having sex is also very calming and relaxing for me and makes life mellower for a couple of days.
Maybe you guys are right and you've done everything you can and it's just up to your wives. No, not everything, but a lot of things.
I am still looking for the right lever pull or button push sequence to be in the winner’s circle. I am not hoping for or depending on lucky, but I haven’t found what works very well.
Maybe I am looking for my W to do as much as I have to improve the R. Just being a little facetious, sorry.
by fixating on your issues and spending all of your time trying to prove how miserable you are in your marriage, it seems like you are just reinforcing the negativity in your life. That is true. Most of the posters are saying they did “A” and “B” and “C” and not much changed. Some of the vents are just saying one spouse did some work and the pay off was minimal.
I did some of the DB things to be more independent. It felt like I was giving up on the M. I could feel, the more I did for myself, the less I cared about my W, the less I cared about our M. Spooky in a way.
If I'm not helping at all, just tell me to stop posting and I will. I wouldn't want you to stop posting Fearless.
My reply earlier was just to let you know how I, one person, feels about fulfilling my own sexual needs verses being in a sexual R and I was expressing the differences how those desires play out with someone I care about.
I think a few women have the idea the guy just wants sex, any sex with about any woman will do. It might work that way for players, or for someone still thinking like a teenager. It doesn't work that well for me. That is "MY" story.
The HDW's have their own thoughts about LDH's so this HD?LD? thing isn't gender specific.
I have no business talking at all about the LD/HD thing because I don't understand the woman LD thing and obviously I haven't a clue what it is to be a HD man. Well, stick around. You will learn most of it fast.
I just wanted to restate that the issue isn't physical release. The issue is, at least for this HD spouse, the need to feel desired by my wife. I feel that desire best when she actively participates in ML to me, when she occasionally initiates it, when she is playful and when she is actively pursuing me.
I don't know about others, but sleeping alone as a bachelor wasn't a difficult thing to do at all. I look back now and think I would very much enjoy the lack of stress that sleeping that way would entail. Sleeping with a spouse that really has no sexual desire for you is about the loneliest thing that I've yet experienced.
No I guess I am one of those needy guys. 
Just being a little facetious, sorry. 