Wondering if I'm piecing or Last Resort

[kirby]

It's hard to know which forum you belong in, isn't it? Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't come to Piecing until I was really, really sure that's what I was doing. But I'm here, and I've been getting great advice, so I'm staying.

I don't know if my W has re-established contact with OM or not. I prefer to believe not, but I can't tell. I don't think I want to know. I think TL told me a while ago that she will probably contact OM, that most WAS do that. It's got to hurt a bit though, no matter how well you've detached, GALed, PMAd, DBed. I feel for you.

But I envy you the ILY. Maybe tomorrow (or next week, or next month...) I'll get one from my W. But, if I never get one from her again, I know it will be sad, but I don't have to be. I don't expect her to say ILY. Not today or tomorrow. It would be a pleasant surprise though, a shocking one actually, .

I'm sure it does take a while. I think I'm finally getting to the space where I can stop fighting to make it go quicker.

Good luck, Wedge.

[lilypad]

Hey Kirby,

Looks like you are turning your sail a bit. Good for you! I think you are starting to see a direction for yourself. That's what (I think) DB is all about. Finding a way to implement the tools in your own life. We all have different approaches, different goals. What are some of yours? What are you working on for yourself? It helps to put it out there and have some folks holding you accountable.

Well, I had so much to say after reading all the GREAT posts... but now, can't remember. So I'll just run down a list of reminders for you...

1. W in house with you - GOOD THING!!
2. Work on yourself. GAL - W will notice if it is genuinely for you
3. No R talk, back off, give room to breathe (remember, don't hang on to one that is drowning)
4. This takes time. Learn to appreaciate small changes.
5. Martyrdom isn't attractive
6. Don't try to read W - her feelings, her actions, what they mean. Even when things were 'good' you probably misconstrued things.
7. Don't let her attitude/feelings determine yours
8. Try not to snoop... it's hard

And that's one thing I thought I would share. I snoop for the perceived power and control. I think that if I have the information, I am in a place to control things. Not even close. I feel even more out of control when I snoop...

That's all for now. Running to a meeting...

Good luck. Talk soon.

[kirby]

Thanks, Lilypad,
The reminders are appreciated, and valuable. I'm thinking about printing them out, laminating them, and carrying them in my wallet - and I'm almost serious. Maybe I'll memorize them and chant them as a mantra.

Your insight about snooping is right on. If I know what's happening, maybe I can control it. At least I won't be surprised and as hurt. I can protect myself. I'm learning I have to let go of the things I can't control. I can't control my W's actions or OM, or A. Snooping doesn't give control. Thanks.

[lilypad]

And I will do the same. Probably good to take my own advice here!!

[kirby]

Journaling this morning, reviewing last nights R talk!

With the start of my new found detachment, I’ve been having some good days. I felt I was dealing with the sitch well, being a good father, good friend, and good person. I even enjoy myself at times. I was thinking that it was getting easier at home, that there was less tension and my W and I were slowly becoming friends again. So last night, after putting the kids to bed, I was kind of surprised.

I could tell me W wasn’t happy. I try to give her plenty of alone time with D10 at bed time. I try not to come into the room, and I wait until W is done before I go in to tuck in my D and tell her goodnight. Because I needed to take care of something, I interrupted them to say a quick goodnight and go take care of my business. W seemed peeved. I thought it was because of the interruption and the way my D said “I love you” and hugged me that made her angry. But, with my new sense of detachment, I figured it was her issue to deal with. I shouldn’t feel bad about what I had to do, or for wanting to say goodnight to my D, and I went to bed.

Main topic of the talk
I was reading in bed when my W came up. She wanted to discuss why she was upset instead of letting it fester. I give her credit for doing that. In our past, I think she would always keep it inside. She was upset because she felt jealous that I get to be the last one to say goodnight to D, I get to tuck her in, I go to her at night if she needs anything. She feels she is being punished. I don’t know what she feels exactly; that she is mad at me, that she is mad at the situation, that it just makes her feel bad? I asked her who was punishing her, and told her she isn’t being punished. I said I understood how she feels, that I would probably feel the same way. I tried hard not to try to solve the problem.

DBing
This is when it got weird, or harder for me. She said she’s been reading DB, and that I’m DBing her. See, when she first came back, and said she loved me and wanted to make it work, I gave her the book and talked to her about it. She said she has been reading it. She said that maybe she had been DBing for the last 3 years, and that it hadn’t worked. I tried to obfuscate. I said I didn’t really like the DB books. Then I felt bad for saying that and said that it didn’t matter what she thought. I could read what I want and believe what I want. She couldn’t tell me what I was thinking or doing. If she wanted to know what I thought or felt, she could ask me and I’d tell her. She agreed. At another point in the talk, she mentioned she wasn’t an alien, and that she hadn’t changed. She thought I thought she had changed, but she hadn’t. I said I didn’t have a clue what she thought or felt. I’d accept that she had not changed, which meant the only real change is how she felt about me (ouch).

Her discussing aliens and DB made me wonder if she has snooped on me. I wonder if she opened my nightstand drawer and saw the DR book, as well as the books by Gottman (7 principles) and some notes I had taken. I wonder if she is reading my posts here. That’s a little unnerving. There was some evidence one day that she had been in my drawer. I don’t think she has. Hmmm.

Other topics
We also talked about how she thought I had a lot of anger. I really don’t think I do. I said that what she read as anger could be discomfort, grief, concern, any number of other emotions. When she thinks I’m angry, she could ask me if I am. I said I hear a lot of anger in her voice. She said she is angry sometimes. When asked why, she said if she thought about the past, she could probably come up with a lot of reasons. Would it be good for her to review the things that made her angry and to tell me what they are? Would it be good for me? She said she might make a list.

We talked about how we cared for each other and want to be friends. We talked about how she has a bright future. She said she knows better what she wants; a job that challenges her and uses her skills and education. She doesn’t know what she wants from or with me. I guess that’s better than saying she does know and that it’s divorce.

Analysis of my actions
I tried to listen, I also tried to be part of the conversation and keep it going. I think now that I’m still making the same mistake; I need to shut up. I need to ONLY listen. I need to NOT get emotional during a R talk. Getting emotional makes it hard or impossible for me to hear well. Maybe this would be a 180 for me.

Also, I’m looking for THE answer. I am hoping that she will say something, I will say something, that will be decisive. It’s not going to happen. As you’ve told me, there is no one thing that will make or break this. I’m expecting too much from her and from me. I’m expecting way too much from one conversation.

I could go on, and did in my journal, but this is long enough. Next, I want to address goals and lilypads challenge/question. Sure would like someone's opinion on my R talk form last night. Thanks.

[kirby]

after the talk last night, this morning was OK. But, my W started up the Blazer (she hates that vehicle) to warm it up so she and D could sit in it while waiting for the school bus. She locked the keys in the truck and had to call me to come get her. It really made her mad. She said it made her feel dependent. She hated it. I said it could happen to anyone, and as a friend I thought she would do the same for me. I wish it hadn't happened. It did.

I'd drive the Blazer but it would double our monthly gas bill. We need to get our finances right first. Then we can work on getting a different vehicle. When she gets a job, maybe we can get a different car.

[grasshopper]

Kirby, why was it again that you gave her the "battle plan"? I think we've already been through this, but unlike most relationship help books, I think DB/DR are best read by the LBS, and certainly not by both partners, or at least not until LONG after reconciliation. It's too easy for the WAS to go "see, it's all just some plan you got from a book. It's not real." like your W did.

Anyway, like I said, I think you know that. What's done is done. I liked how you handled it and hopefully this is a start of her being more open and communicative with you.

GH

[kirby]

I was new to this, and thought my W was back home and ready to really work on M/R, showed her the book. Now she has it in her 'bedroom' and I can't very well go and take it from her. Wish I knew now, etc. Oh well. Hopefully not too much harm done. I have taken the lesson on board to NOT discuss the battle plan, and haven't for a long time.

Maybe she is opening up more. That would be nice, although I'm sure I'm going to hear some things that will hurt and surprise me. I can't wait.

One thing that shook me about our talk last night, was how my detachment started to fade. I was doing well. If she would have left me alone for a few more days, I think I would have had it down much better.

Anyway, although I don't care as much as I did, I still would like to know what she is going through and thinking. I remember reading back when I started here a post from a WAS that asked why we LBS thought WAS were so alien. Maybe she was right. Maybe their actions aren't so hard to understand, just hard to accept. Is my W acting on her feelings and if so what can I interpret from her actions? She's always been a cypher to me. Is she feeling guilt, trapped, angry, all of the above? Wonder if I'll ever know.

[kirby]

Tempted to call, contact, a girl I used to work with who could be a friend, or more than a friend. She would, might, give me the affection I’m craving. It’s not hard to resist the temptation, but it is tempting. Luckily, she’s crazy and I know she would be really bad for me.


Good morning, a little journaling for today, to help me think things through and get it off my chest.

My best friend's girl friend of 4 years just dropped the bomb on him. He has been a huge support for me. She was starting to be. Now I’m trying to support him too.

His sitch is quite a bit different, and there is much hope for him, but he is facing many of the same problems. She is recently (2+ yrs?) divorced form an abusive, drug addict. She needs to re-establish her own sense of self and her boundaries. Even though she really likes (loves) my friend, she needs to simplify her life, and find herself. So they split up. He understands and he is setting boundaries. He has insisted, nicely, that she move all her stuff out of his apartment. He will not call or contact her. But, he has told her the door is always open if she changes her mind.

I feel that his actions make sense. In many ways, I’d like to do the same. It is really hard sometimes to live with the woman I love and who doesn’t love me. Sometimes I think it would be better if we were physically separated. If it were possible, I might suggest it to her. I will not leave the house or the kids. She will not leave the kids again. We don’t have the money to operate 2 households, so we will stay separated in the same house for now. But it does make sense on some level to really separate if she doesn’t know if she wants a R with me or not. What do you all think?

Weekends can be a little tough. Spending more time together makes me miss the affection and love more than when I have work to distract me. I miss expressing my love and affection as much as I miss her showing me love and affection.

I’m tempted to call or contact a girl I used to work with. She has been a friend. I think she could be a friend, and maybe more. That’s why I don’t contact her, but I am tempted. I think she would give me the affection I’m missing. Better to admit it here than really do it, right?

I’ve been thinking more about goals, and I’m trying to get rid of the idea that there is one or two wonderful, big, changes I can make that will make me happy and impress my W. Small changes are OK. It doesn’t matter if my W notices or is impressed, although I’d like it if she were. Most importantly, these changes are going to take a long time and I need to be patient. The only change that has come quickly is losing weight ( I need to start eating more!).

One change I’m going to make is join a local church. I want to feed my spiritual side and I want to feel part of a community. I want the opportunity to volunteer and make a difference. I want to be a better example for my kids. I’ve visited a church and picked the one I’m interested in, but didn’t get to attend a service because I went to the support of my friend. Next Sunday, I’ll be there. I’m looking forward to this, but I don’t want to wait. This church also has some good youth programs that I think my kids will enjoy.

My plan now is to set goals, and work on making them happen; develop more detachment and patience; continue to give her space to figure things out for herself (although she seems pretty sure about things lately). Any suggestions on what else I should or could do, or do better?

Speaking of my W’s new found confidence, I’m not sure how to take it. She has started to make slightly snide remarks to me. I feel she is judging me and my actions, and that I may not be living up to her expectations. I feel she needs to put me down to build herself up a little. I brush these comments off and don’t take the bait to fight or argue over it. I also try not to care if she is judging me. Largely, I think I’m successful. And I remember that apathy is the opposite of love. If she really didn’t care, I don’t think she would make the comments. Although, I’m probably reading way to much into her comments and the possible motives behind them. Best to let them go, focus on my and what I can control and change. That’s long enough for today, don’t you think?

[grasshopper]

This idea has been posted by me and many others but it's time to do it again for your sake, and in response to...

One thing that shook me about our talk last night, was how my detachment started to fade. I was doing well. If she would have left me alone for a few more days, I think I would have had it down much better.

Detaching is not a negative thing. I suppose it could be seen/taken as such but what it really represents is a more evolved way to be in a relationship.

I was reading a book recently (The Lion's Game by Demille) where two characters/lovers are going through their day and at some point she gets upset about something. Now, the "attached" mate would react to that. He would get upset right along with her for a variety of reasons. A) Because he caused her be upset B) Simply because she is upset and he doesn't think she should be C) For him NOT to be upset would reflect the fact that he didn't "sympathize" with her mood D) All of the above.

In the book, the man simply shrugged and went on about his business as if nothing happened. It wasn't portrayed that he didn't care but rather that his mood did NOT need to reflect hers in order for him to be loving. He could BE his own person and when she decided to talk to him about it, she would...or not. The way the book told this anecdote was really powerful to me because I thought about how I would have reacted and I knew that it would be FAR from how the character in the book did but when I read that (albeit fiction mind you), I really saw a powerful example of how it COULD be done.

Detachment is, yes, about shutting off certain feelings, but more than that...really, BEYOND that, it's about learning how to be your own person and still be physically, emotionally and spiritually close to another person. It's about learning how to not be swallowed whole by a relationship.

Detachment, it the context I think of it in is much more about being loving enough towards your spouse not to burden them with your emotional reaction to what is already probably a bad emotional time for them. It's about giving them the respect/space to come to you if they need help and not thinking you need to fix them all the time.

That's why you see it said as "LOVING detachment" a lot of times, i.e. I love you enough to respect your feelings, your state of mind without automatically assuming I am the cause or the solution to whatever you are going through at the moment. I will be there for you if you need me, but I will not force myself into the situation.

It's not about being oblivious or unkind, it's about being 100% secure in your own emotion state of being that you don't need to adopt the state of being of your spouse just because it seems like the right thing to do at the moment.

I know first hand, when I have been able to remain detached in certain situations and NOT react like I used to, my W eventually opens up, or solves her own problem, etc, but ALWAYS recognizes what I did/didn't do and thanks me.

So, don't allow your detachment to "fade" as if it's some kind of tool (like she thinks it is) to get you past the bad times. Grow your ability to detach and use it as a tool to allow you to be CLOSER to your wife and still maintain that which she probably values the most...YOU.

GH