First of all, I intentionally did not read any other responses to this post so if I repeat what others have said, good, take it as reinforcement. If I manage to squeak out an original thought or two...well, we'll cross THAT bridge if we ever come to it, lol.
Quote: The underlying issue here is that she feels she told me, clearly, that she didn't want to do it and was upset, and I didn't hear her or understand. This is a problem she has always had. She cannot communicate well, and she avoids confrontation. Now I know that I wasn't listening well. If she would have fought with me about my mom (we never 'fight') and hit me over the head, I might have understood.
Guy, I have heard this MANY times since all this started. My W CLAIMS to have CLEARLY told me MANY things that I swear I learned about for the first time as we were fighting about it, her ready to once again quit on our marriage.
The bottom line here is your W and mine are 100% right. In THEIR way, they have told us clearly what they are upset about and we have not heard them. Yes, it's on your W to learn a bit about your language but unfortunately, at this stage of your process, much of the learning is on YOU since you are the one who initially wanted to save this thing. Eventually, it will be a much more shared process but for now, learn all you can about how she has "clearly" told you things, see how you COULD have heard her on those issues and then apply it to present day communication and see if there isn't more you're missing.
Oh, and the "We never fight" part...that's bad by the way. Never fighting is not the goal. Learning to fight well and then move on is the goal.
Quote: Then, after the class, we met with the MC. I learned there that I'm not handling my grief as well as I thought I was and my W resents it. I need to work on this more. More GALing, more learning to Stop thinking.
You also mentioned somewhere that she "saw it on your face" or something like that. She'll ALWAYS see it on your face if you're merely trying to hide your feelings. The trick, as you suggest, is to actually move past your feelings by either changing the subject in your own mind, or expressing yourself and getting the "bad" stuff out. Either way, you have to DO something about how you feel, not just bury it. It WILL show in your actions and words if you do not.
Quote: After the MC session, W started talking R in the car. She is angry at me for snooping. I haven't snooped for a while, and I never snooped very well, but I did. So, don't snoop. They don't like it; it doesn't help, fight the urge.
I've probably said this 100 times on these boards and most of the time, it takes experience to change people's minds. I wish that were not true because the snooping WILL cause problems as things get better because while snooping is not quite the same violation of trust as cheating is, it's still hurts pretty bad to the one snooped on and that pain lingers. Yea, I know, snooping seems justified but then again, as the cheaters often say, so was their cheating. Wrong on both accounts.
In both cases I think the actions are more a sign of a person not trusting themselves to act correctly, according to their own interests, as much as not trusting their spouse.
Quote: Lastly, she told me that she doesn’t love me and doesn’t know if she ever will again. This is the bottom line; more important then the OM or anything else I think.
This sounds more like something they say at the beginning of the sitch rather than the beginning of reconciling. I guess you're thinking that since she's "trying" that you're in the piecing stage. I don't really discount that, but the one thing I did catch in a reply to this post from someone else is that you should NOT, in ANY way be letting your DB guard down. In fact, as it's been said 100,000 times before, you should never stop DBing for the rest of your life, especially as it pertains to your focus on maintaining your individuality and your own set of interests.
That's where the spice of a relationship often lies; in our ability to offer something more than just a recounting of the shared life with our spouse. Your ability to demonstrate your own interests, goals and desires is paramount to not only your marriage, but more importantly, to YOUR happiness, for which you are 100% responsible.
Quote: I am in a dangerous position, as we all are or have been. Even though I have it better than many, I could screw this up easily. I need to DB and understand DBing.
Yes, sort of. OT used to admonish me when I would beat myself up over a slip-up (paraphrasing to follow) "If you think your entire marriage hangs on this one thing, this one interaction, then you've got bigger problems than xxxxxxx."
The point being; yes, you could screw this up, but probably not for the reasons you think. The way you'll screw it up is not by making the occasional mistake, but rather the consistent making of the same mistakes and never learning from them. IF, your marriage could be destroyed, once and for all, by some stupid thing you do, then it's not worth your time anyway.
I suspect that while damage can, and has been done by your foul-ups, the major damage that continues to be done is due to your continued externalizing of your life's problems and your continued desire to control the situation. Once you solve THOSE problems, you will be much more likely to achieve success.
Quote:
I think she is still a WAS and MLCer. She is wearing makeup, for pretty much the first time in her life. She got her ears pierced, although she swore she never would. Her MLC may be milder than some, but I think it’s still there. So I still need to practice Last Resort techniques; mainly giving her space and work on myself.
In a way, I hate the whole idea of LRT, or at least the "branding" of it as such. Really, all the LRT is, is the renewing of DB principals without much, if ANY concern for how it affects the relationship. The reason why it works when most other DB efforts have failed is because, well, when people give up hope, or at least get to the last straw in their sitches, they FINALLY detach, GAL and do all the things they were supposed to be doing all along...and guess what, as promised, it has an effect on their WAS. Who'd uh thunk it?
I'm not sure how to reconcile (no pun...ah, maybe I did) you saying in one paragraph that you think you're piecing with this idea that you are at the LRT stage. The two things do not go together. I am not telling you that you're wrong about piecing, or that you should stop posting here. Please don't, but what I am saying is that there seems to be a WHOLE lot of conflict in your mind about where things stand and if that's the case, all the more reason to just keep DBing your a$$ off, but maybe without the label of LRT.
Quote: But, it seems to me that we can have R talks, as long as there aren’t too many, too emotional, and not seen as pressuring her to make a decision and love me already. So I intend to have a few R talks and see if I can learn more about what I missed that she was telling me during our M (like how she felt about my mom, how she doesn’t like the way I do laundry, etc.).
Ok, but here is a GREAT chance for you to investigate and see if she's "clearly" told you that R talks are not good FOR HER and that she's only humoring you by having them. I have no idea if this is the case or not, but you HAVE to tread lightly here. DB/DR suggests no R talks for a reason, and that reason is that THEY ARE ALOMOST ALWAYS PERCIEVED AS PRESSURE by the WAS, and since your W, like mine, is a known bad communicator...well, you get my point.
I would seriously work on HEARING what she's saying to you about things and rely less on direct R talks. I know directness is the best policy but that's when you both are on the same page. Right now, that is not really the case.
Quote: Mostly, I will work on myself and managing my grief. I may get my own C to help me with learning how to find my own happiness and not depend on her.
Yes, please get an IC. They could be the key to all this since you will get a chance to work through your own issues and learn to separate your "crap" from the marriage crap and most importantly HER crap.
As for the grief part, again, if you're "piecing" then why are you still managing grief? Nobody died. What you are managing is your resentment, anger and pain, all of which are evidence that you're still externalizing much of your feelings.
I hate to be graphic, but what you are doing (and BTW, me and everyone else going through this is too) is akin to having your stomach opened up and your guts spilled. You get the injury, somehow manage to put everything back in place and then you reach back in and start pulling bits back out through the wound again. Your assailant has long walked away. The pain you are feeling now is largely at your own hand and while the wound, or at least it's scar, is still there, that doesn't mean you have to reach into it and use it to inflict pain on yourself again.
Again, please get a C for YOU only, and if I may suggest getting a female C that may be able to help you learn to understand the female (not that all of them do it the same way but...) methods of communication.
You are still doing fine. Please stop worrying about where you are at in terms of your sitch (Piecing, LRT, etc) and more on where you are at with your own goals and your own idea of personal progress.
