You could probably chart my emotions today by my posts. Yep, they've been all over the place. I'm thinking clearer now, though, so I thought I'd take a minute to do my own little post mortem about our phone call this morning.
When she made accusations, and said what she was mad about, I should have done nothing, other than listen, validate her anger, or stop the conversation. I should not have engaged her, tried to prove her wrong, stood up for myself, etc.
Why? Because it's not effective. There are times to give her information about me, like what I'm learning, etc. That time is NOT when she's trying to engage me in an argument.
She did push a couple of my buttons, besides the jealousy one. There's the sex button ("you wouldn't have sex with me"), the friend button ("you're trying to be the good guy to our friends"), the caretaker button ("my life is miserable because of this"), and the approval button ("this isn't making me like you anymore"). That about covers all of them. Only one she didn't pull out today was the Big D button, but that's only because it was understood.
I am dumbfounded that I didn't see it coming. It was the jealousy, I guess. One thing I know now that I didn't before, however, is that after something seemingly goes well between us, like I thought it did Sunday, I should expect a backlash, as her stand is challenged.
OK, now for the good.
"Poor Me" is dead. I haven't seen him in quite awhile, and he was nowhere around during this conversation, which was otherwise fairly unrestrained.
"The Manipulator" is missing in action. I didn't say anything today just because I thought it was what she wanted to hear, and didn't do any backtracking. I'm pretty sure this guy is still closeby in a bunker, though, so I'll keep an eye out.
Last thing. My response to the proposition thing was wonderfully messy and over-the-top. I'm sure that my rage blinded me to the attack that was coming. But it gave me an incredible amount of confidence. The reason is that it was spontaneous and fearless. I still have to deal with the negative thoughts that are like "If you do win her back, you're still not going to be the man she needs." What happened to me today was proof that the changes in me, the confidence, sense of masculinity, personal power, are real and internal. I don't have to worry about trying to constantly put on this John Wayne mask. Rigley's man enough.
I've been struggling with this my whole life. What a gift from God.
Quote: Think about this for a second. A guy who is supposedly a friend jokingly propositions my wife. I'm mad. I should be mad. I felt like I needed to show that I was mad. My alternative was to ignore it. That tells my wife, wrongly, that I don't care about it, but more importantly, I lose self respect.
[snip]The new Rigley says "he's dishonored you and betrayed me and I want to to smash his face in."
I have absolutely NO problem with your reacting jealously, or wanting to smash his face in, or telling your wife you wanted to smash his face in. I agree that telling her "he was probably kidding" would have discounted her. What I have a problem with is you ACTUALLY CALLING HIM even though you weren't able to go through with the phone call. If you were FAKING calling him just to impress her and she thought you were really calling him, then okay... but if you were REALLY calling him based on the flimsy, manipulative thing she said, you might have wound up REALLY embarrassed.
All that B.S. about how you "wouldn't let her tell your friends that sex was a problem"-- utter carp. She can tell anyone she damm well pleases anything she damm well pleases. If she is so through with your a$$ that she's begging you to agree to a D, then why does she care what you've told her to do/not do?
What's that you say? She DOES care what you told her not to do?
Further evidence, I reply, that she does NOT want a D.
When you start to feel defensive, you might fall back on the tried-and true response that fits all occasions where no response fits, namely: "Oh." said with no rising inflection.
She does indeed play you like a fiddle... maybe we should change your name to "Strad"(ivarius).
If you suspect you're being played, end the conversation. Just interrupt and say, "Let me call you back." Very nicely. You can always go back to the convo. She gathers momentum and keeps pummeling you, as you described so well in your last post. I think you must break the momentum. One reason that you must put a stop to allowing her to scold you and ream you out is that I suspect after one of those reaming out sessions, SHE hates herself for being such a b!tch... but she blames you because you drove her to it. Someone has to be the grownup and put a stop to it.
if you were REALLY calling him based on the flimsy, manipulative thing she said, you might have wound up REALLY embarrassed.
I was really calling him. And you're absolutely right that I was lucky she called. I had every intention of going straight for the jugular. And I could have been really embarrassed. I cannot tell you how out of character this was for me. I'm Mr. Benefit of the Doubt. Insanity
She cares about me. She's wounded, scared, and mad. She's on the defensive, pulling out all the stops, trying everything she can think of to make the pain stop, and yet she's apologizing to me more than ever, and on occasion showing me a lot of respect.
And despite all this crap, my respect for her is growing. Although I find myself regularly saying "I can do without this" I only use it to keep my self respect in the midst of all this. I promised this girl I won't give up on her, and I won't.
This "oh" (no rising inflection response) and the "can I call you back" is more helpful than you know. I need to reherse them.
I think you're absolutely right about her hating herself for her talk, and hating me for it too. I'd be doing both of us a favor for stopping it.
Lillieperl, thank you.
P.S. If I'm going to be called an instrument, I prefer Steinway. (mine's back at the house)
Yeah, I guess we can say she plays you like a Steinway.
I was thinking about something else re you today... I must preface with a story about a woman friend of mine who got a divorce. She had been married to a very domineering man. When she got the D, she had been so used to kowtowing to her husband that she honestly didn't know who she was, or what her preferences were even in the most trivial areas. I was very touched by the story she told of her son (who was in his late teens at the time) taking her to the grocery store to buy stuff for herself. She didn't know what she liked. She was so used to buying stuff for her picky husband, that she didn't know what kind of food she liked. She said her son went up and down the aisles putting stuff in her basket, saying things like, "Mom, let's get some of this. I've heard you say you like this <whatever>." Sad story. The punch line is that she went on to become a very accomplished artist who works in a unique medium where she creates vessels out of coiled yarn and fabric. Her pieces are stunning and she's had many many shows over the last several decades.
Anyway, what this has to do with you is the following: I'd like to suggest that as you go about your normal day, you stop often and check in with yourself as to your preferences. When you go into a restaurant for lunch, instead of just ordering your "usual," look at the menu and ask yourself, "What would I really like to eat right now?" Or when you get dressed in the morning, instead of grabbing your typical outfit, ask what do I want to wear? If you wear ties, what color speaks to me right now? When you're in the car listening to the radio, what song do you want to listen to, or what program. Same with the TV. Instead of just turning it on, look over the program guide and see what you'd REALLY like to watch right now. See where I'm going? Be active not passive. Check in with yourself and get to know what it viscerally feels like to be in touch with something that you like, that you want, and that gives you satisfaction. These are ways that you can practice self-assertion that don't challenge anyone else and don't require confrontation or even gumption. Just indulge yourself and honor your preferences.
I read on another BB that one guy who's going through a rough break-up has initiated a practice of every morning as his feet hit the floor he expresses gratitude-- out loud. To God, if you have a God, to the universe, to whomever... he goes into the day with gratitude on his lips.
With all our woes, we all have a lot to be grateful for...
Interesting how much her statements portray her as a "victim" of the events and how much she wants others to see her as such. Enough about her what happened to the list of nice things you're doing for yourself?
Interesting how much her statements portray her as a "victim" of the events and how much she wants othersto see her as such.
Yeah, I've always considered myself the one who wants sympathy, but lately I'm realizing her tendency to seek it is just as strong as mine. Like we were fighting to see who had life harder. I'm outta that game.
Enough about her what happened to the list of nice things you're doing for yourself?
Worked my way through it. Guess it's time for another one.
Quote: Yeah, I've always considered myself the one who wants sympathy, but lately I'm realizing her tendency to seek it is just as strong as mine. Like we were fighting to see who had life harder.
Another way that you two serve as mirrors to each other. Her stuff is your stuff and vice versa. Her finger is perfectly matched to your hot buttons and vice versa.
I'd like to suggest that as you go about your normal day, you stop often and check in with yourself as to your preferences.
I've been considering this today, the similarities and diffences between me and the woman you mention.
At first I thought "I'm not like that, I choose things I want when I'm by myself." That's true, but there's another element. I often feel like I'm doing it behind someone's back. Like my selection may be questioned later and I'll have to give account for why, for instance, I chose to watch Flip This House instead of, I don't know, the Presidential address. (OK, I watched the President because I wanted to, bad example.)
I am going to take your suggestion. I think it's a good one. And I think I'm also going to pick some things that may not even be what I want to do at the time, but they're what someone else may consider "wrong." I need to get more comfortable with the idea of someone else not liking the choice I've made, so I can better enjoy the fact that I do indulge myself, do generally know what I want, and when it's up to me, do choose those things.
Quote: I often feel like I'm doing it behind someone's back. Like my selection may be questioned later and I'll have to give account
I COMPLETELY identify with this. Often as I'm going about some normal, harmless activity, I automatically prepare in my head some justification or defense of it as though someone were going to question me or challenge me, even when I'm alone. Sick puppy.
I can relate to this too...needing to give myself permission to do things I want to do...I think it has something to do with guilt, not necessarily judgment.
I know my sex drive woke up as a result of having had dominating thoughts, for ex., thinking of myself as trapped and and having no other option but to give in to the sexuality. I think my H's wishy-washy behavior contributed to my own repression.
Rigley, the way I see it is that you and your W have both been very " locked in" ( for a variety of reasons which you've detailed here) and you are both removing the shackles. Your W needed anger to mobilize her, and that's creating changes within you. No matter what the outcome, I see the two of you eventually moving toward healthier territory.
She said her son went up and down the aisles putting stuff in her basket, saying things like, "Mom, let's get some of this. I've heard you say you like this <whatever>." Sad story. The punch line is that she went on to become a very accomplished artist who works in a unique medium where she creates vessels out of coiled yarn and fabric. Her pieces are stunning and she's had many many shows over the last several decades. 