Rigley said I see exactly the same pattern as in the old restaurant selection. She wanted me to take the lead. I didn't take the lead in a manly way. She stepped in to take the lead, but resented it. When I tried to take the lead back, she resisted. BTDT.
Rigley. Is your W picky or difficult to please? If so, even when you decide, are firm, does she come up with alternatives to what you say?
My situation is/was, I ask my W what some of her preferences are. She tells me what ever I want. Then I decide but she tells me "well, not that choice." We do this a couple of times till she is satisfied. That was the old me.
What I had to do was stick to my choice after asking for a range of options that she liked. If she doesn't have a range of options and tries to shoot down my choices, then tough.
What I am seeing as a "general pattern" but it does not apply to everyone is, someone wants their SO to be responsible and competent leader, but some will complain if the choice the SO makes doesn't turn out the way they thought it should have.
As a H, I know I need to consider my W's interests, make choices that work for both of us, but I know what I consider a good outcome will not always be considered by my W as the best outcome.
I can learn to live with my choices and learn to feel OK if someone else is not happy when I know I did what I thought was right for the both of us/family.
Like in business, there is always someone who isn't going to be happy. One of my customers has a sign by his front door, it reads:
You can have it fast. You can have it cheap. You can have it done right. Pick any two. The last company that granted all three things is out of business. I am not ready to retire or go bankrupt.
The Management.
Not that the above things apply directly to R's but it helps me not to feel bad when people want more than I can deliver.
Lou, you make a good point about trying to consider others when making a choice, but being OK with not pleasing everyone. In the past, I lived like my happiness was dependent on my wife's. So even when I picked something I liked (thinking she would too) I wasn't even happy.
About pickiness, I think my wife, my children, and probably I, have all been expecting too much out of our selections. You know, if you don't like the restaurant today, you can pick another one tomorrow!
She had a few things to discuss, including the heater not working downstairs.
She also said that she called our pediatrician-friend who'd been seeing our kids at our house or his over the last few years, and told him we were moving them to another doctor. She said he propositioned her for sex. "At least he wants to [censored] me." I don't know much of what was said after that, because I was pissed.
We hung up and I dialed his number, and she beeped in. She said she was sorry she'd said that to me, and to please drop it. I erupted. I told her I wasn't mad at her, I was mad at him, for acting like my friend and then doing this to me. I went on and on about what a piece of sh!t he was, but agreed not to call him. She said she'd never talk to him again. She said she was trying to hurt me by telling me this, and she was sorry.
She went on about how he was just kidding. (right.) I said I was pissed because he'd betrayed me, but also because he was a slime ball and she was too good for him. She said to not worry, that nothing was going to happen. But she wanted me to know that other guys wanted her. I told her "I wanted you, and I DO want you."
She said she still feels like I'm making her the bad guy by wearing my ring, and that I'm telling all our friends that she's leaving me, and acting pitiful, but I won't let her tell them about the sex stuff. I said "but I said I didn't mind if you told your best friend. Did you?" she said yes, and I said "And...?" She said, "but she didn't tell her husband and your friends.
Then she went into how this was working out so perfectly for me because I had the kids on the weekend and was getting to do stuff with our friends and she wasn't. (That football game the other night was at our mutual friends' house. The wife, my wife's best friend, had mentioned she might go hand out with my wife, but she ended up going to another friends' house instead.) My wife said "I guess she's tired of all this sh!t too.
She said, and none of this is making me have good feelings about you.
And then she said, "And you won't even stand up and be a man and end this." I said "I am being a man, by facing my part in what has happened to us, and dealing with my issues head on."
W: "But you won't even say why you're wearing your ring. And you won't DO anything."
I get pretty loud at this point, but not yelling at her, just passionate.
M: "I am doing something. I'm doing my damndest to become a man that a woman can rely on, a man that knows what he thinks, a man who doesn't look to you so much for approval. A man who doesn't need to follow you around all the time to figure if he's allowed to be happy. A man who can make a decision without being wishy-washy."
I went on longer than that, and she was silent. When she came back, she said that she was mad, that her life as she knew it is over because of me. I said I was mad too, that my life as I had know it was over too, but that I wasn't going to take it out on her, and she wasn't taking it out on me. I said "I get that you're mad."
There were a couple more times in this conversation when I acknowledged her anger. At one point, when she was going on and on about me turning our friends against her, I said "you've got plenty of valid reasons to be mad at me, and I want to hear them, but please don't get mad at me about things I haven't done."
At the end of the conversation, I tried to exit by wrapping up the other details. I mentioned there might be a business card on the heater with a number she could call. She said "I'm not an idiot. I can take care of this."
I hope you've resolved to avoid these accusatory conversations-- this seems very unproductive to me. When she gets into the "If you were a man..." "Why don't you..." IMHO that's your signal to end the conversation. DO NOT defend yourself. That just gives credibility to her accusations. Acknowledging her anger without trying to fix it is good.
I doubt the entire story about the doctor, and for you to immediately try to call him was over the top. Rig, get a grip! This woman is pushing your buttons-- holy cr@p! Do you REALLY believe this man came out and propositioned her??
I doubt the entire story about the doctor, and for you to immediately try to call him was over the top. Rig, get a grip! This woman is pushing your buttons-- holy cr@p! Do you REALLY believe this man came out and propositioned her??
She said he phrased it as a joke, and I believe he did, and that he was hoping she'd take him up on it. I've had my eye on this guy.
Think about this for a second. A guy who is supposedly a friend jokingly propositions my wife. I'm mad. I should be mad. I felt like I needed to show that I was mad. My alternative was to ignore it. That tells my wife, wrongly, that I don't care about it, but more importantly, I lose self respect.
The button she may have been pushing here is the "is he going to stand up for me" button. The old Rigley would have rationalized it and said "well...he was probably just kidding." The new Rigley says "he's dishonored you and betrayed me and I want to to smash his face in."
I hope you've resolved to avoid these accusatory conversations-- this seems very unproductive to me. When she gets into the "If you were a man..." "Why don't you..." IMHO that's your signal to end the conversation. DO NOT defend yourself. That just gives credibility to her accusations. Acknowledging her anger without trying to fix it is good.
Yeah. The bad part about me getting riled up about the slimey doctor was that I was generally riled up. I ended up being defensive.
I agree with you, but there might be a bright side to it... she got to see Rig express his jealousy, testing whether deep down he really cares for her, which is what she wants. She seems to listen to actions better than words.
Thanks, Martelo. I'm getting there. I think she's starting to she changes she likes in me and is considering the cost of a relationship ... that's why she keeps bringing up the sex issue. At some point, I think I need to acknowledge it again, but in a way that shows I'm not crippled by the thought of it anymore, that shows confidence that I will rebound.
Back to the conversation.... I know I jumped into the pit with her on the real man thing. I shouldn't have.
But I feel really really good about my response to the proposition thing. I can't tell you how different this is for me, and it was absolutely genuine. Before, I would have been afraid of the consequences and minimized it. This has been my entire life ... minimizing things to keep people happy and to protect myself from feeling anything upsetting, or upsetting anyone else. This morning, I didn't even flinch, I let myself be angry, and I feel fantastic. I won't go any further on this issue, and I sure won't just back in the pit with her, but I feel good.
Notes from my coaching session today. Yep, I'm going into debt, but I don't really need a big screen TV.
If she saw something good in me Sunday night, that screwed things up for her, because she'd already made her decision
Challenges should be expected as a result, some of which I saw today.
Don't get defensive
I'm going to have to let her beat up on me. If she blames me unfairly, maybe come back with something like "Yeah, if I felt like that was happening to me I'd be upset too." This is a tough one.
The key to winning her back is to let her experience a different relationship with me
My goal should not be to get her into counseling, or to read anything. These are "cost side" things. I should focus on the value side. A better goal would be that she feels that relating to me is rewarding...something she wants more of.
Once she's embraced the value, she will start to ask cost questions. I said that I thought her repeatedly bringing up the sex issue was an indication that she's considering that as a cost. He asked how she would expect me to respond if she brought it up again, and I said "either with silence or with something pitiful"
He asked me to try a response. This is what I said:
"I know. Not taking the viagra was one of the biggest mistakes of my life, and I guarantee you I would never let that happen again. I will never let my hangups get in the way of showing my wife how I feel, or trying to meet her needs."
He liked that it was genuine, and showed ownership, but said that the promise part of it seemed like pursuing.
He suggested sincere, but more playful, no promises.
At some point, he said, I'll need to have a discussion with her about the sex thing, because it will be a cost that she has to consider. I'll need to talk about the goal of sex being for both people to have a mutually satisfying experience, and that it's a goal. There's no lightswitch, it's something that two people who see its value pursue together.
He said I would need to be confident, neither too brief or verbose. He also said he doesn't think we're ready for this conversation yet. Not until she's convinced of the value of a relationship with me.
OK, so the testosterone and adrenaline has worn off enough that I feel a little like I've been played. I need to settle down again and get out of reactive mode.
