Rigley, I have just a few random thoughts to offer for your consideration.
I noticed that your wife is operating with two conflicting ideas. For instance:
++++++++++++++++++ "At some point she accused me of just giving in to her tonight "like I always do".
AND
"One of the things you've said that's hit me the hardest is that you feel like I control you. For anyone to control you would be a tragedy. You're smart, you have a mind of your own, you have a good heart. I think what I think, but I also respect what you think.
W: Sometimes I think that that's one of my issues that goes back to childhood. That feeling controlled is really from back then."
+++++++++++++++++++
So, how can you be someone who gives into her a lot while at the same time controlling her?
I think it is because even in the times you "gave in" she knew you didn't agree.
And the lack of agreement is being translated into control.
Not only does she want to do/say/be what she wants - she wants your approval/acceptance/support. And having the lack of that overt response is what is leaving her ticked.
She's even doing that with the divorce. She knows you don't agree, she knows you don't want it. She's an adult woman who could instigate and push through a divorce with you fighting it tooth and nail - and she would/could still get the divorce.
So, it's not enough that she has the freedom to do what she wants divorce-wise - she *has* to have *you* thinking it's the right thing to do as well.
And therefore, *she* is the one being controlling.
Quote: Not only does she want to do/say/be what she wants - she wants your approval/acceptance/support. And having the lack of that overt response is what is leaving her ticked.
This is interesting... this makes your W a perfect mirror image of you, Rig. She doesn't want to initiate the D because she doesn't want you to be mad at her. You don't want to resist the D because you don't want her to be mad at you. This is the definition of a totally fused, undifferentiated couple. Neither of you knows where you end and the other begins.
(Not throwing stones, Rig-- I struggle with this CONSTANTLY... phrasing stuff a certain way so my bf won't snap at me.)
Good catch. I was actually thinking about that this morning, but I never got further than "she doesn't know what she wants!"
And you're right about the divorce. She wants me to want what she wants.
I've seen this from her in several areas, down to picking a restaurant. I'll go back to the "you always give into me" comment here. I think she actually wants me to assert myself more, but not in the underhanded, make-her-think-i'm-doing-it-for-her ways I have in the past.
And I want the same from her. You should hear us trying to come to a decision. Both of us trying to choose what we think the other wants, and both of us resenting the other for not saying what they want. *sigh*
This is interesting... this makes your W a perfect mirror image of you, Rig. She doesn't want to initiate the D because she doesn't want you to be mad at her. You don't want to resist the D because you don't want her to be mad at you.
Yep.
I'm thinking that last night I temporarily created a little space for reflection by neither resisting nor complying. It was kind of like an echo chamber, when it came to discussing divorce, with the only voice being hers. That made her nervous.
But enough of me trying to figure out what she's thinking. What's important is that I know what I think, and what I want to do...
Cobra's and Lillieperl's thoughts on validating my wife are right on, I think. I don't think she knows this, but my wife needs to hear over and over from me that I don't think she's crazy, that I do acknowledge that she had needs that weren't being met, and that I'm sorry.
In a separate breath, I think she needs to understand that my mistreatment of her stemmed from my poor self image (and her mistreatment of me) and that I'm dealing with my issues.
I think both of these things are important because the first gives her what she needs to forgive, and the second gives her what she needs to try again.
Am I back to thinking about her? Dear God.
Meanwhile, back at the farm, I've gotten Dieda's book, Cobra, and I'm still going through the exercises in the Nice Guy book, chatting with the fellows on the NMMNG bulletin board, and trying to figure out what the h*ll it means to be differentiated.
You sit your wife down in neutral territory (not her house, not yours) and turn off the cell phones. You begin by saying that you agree with her that your marriage is not all it could be and not all that you want it to be. And that you do not want to live the rest of your life in this tug of war. You believe that if you two can't make a go of it together, then there are other men and women out there who would make good partners, and neither one of you is getting any younger.
BUT--
YOU are not ready to give up on this marriage YET. Yes, you fukced up in the past; you will grant her that. But you do NOT want to keep hearing about it. It's time to move on to the solution phase of this situation. Tick tock.
You have identified as one of your main issues as a couple that each of you needs lots of validation from the other. (This may not be the most important issue, but it's a place to start and it is the place you-- Rigley-- have started.) Cite examples of restaurant selection, etc., up to and including this D talk. Neither one of you wants to make the other mad or even have the other be upset. Thus you are stuck on a hamster wheel, hiding your feelings and being resentful because you are hiding your feelings.
You pull out the differentiation stuff and read it to her or sit there while she reads it. You say, "This is how I want us to operate: as two individuals who are deeply in love with each other, but who have different opinions, ideas, who can disagree, but who still have respect for each other and who want to be together as they walk life's path. (Or something like that.)
You say: If you will promise to work with me for the next six months (or a year, if you think that will fly) on having a grown-up, man-woman, no-more-mr-nice-guy-miss-nice-gal relationship based on honesty and mutual respect and IF THAT does not make either of us happier with this marriage, I promise that I will not stand in the way of a divorce at the end of the six months (or year). You will still have to get the lawyer and file, but I will not put up a fight. I will free you-- and me-- to find happiness with someone else.
But during those six months (or year) I intend to do everything I can to be a man I can be proud of, that you can be proud to be with, that you can look forward to being with, who is growing, and who is not afraid of your reactions to me. I will not throw this marriage away without a fight, and I want you to fight along side of me, not across the table from me. It's time BOTH of us grew up and created for ourselves the life we want-- together preferably, but apart if that's the way it must be.
Then sit down and don't say another word until she says something non-whiny in response to that.
I enjoy my fantasies about you... Maybe they're really fantasies about me...
Then sit down and don't say another word until she says something non-whiny in response to that.
I like it. I especially like the confidence you an Cobra have in me. And I can actually see these type of take-control scenarios coming into play very soon. But there's one missing piece here.
I've been a wimp. I've been a wimp for a few years now, and I've let my life revolve around work and the kids and domestic duties. And I've gone to parties on my wife's arm and watched as she had a great time and I sat there worried that she was going to do something outrageous and the world would come to an end. And I've followed her around the house trying to meet her every need. And I've given up going out with the guys and having a life and dreams on my own.
This is the Rigley that my wife knows.
The Rigley she saw last night was different. I felt it, and I could tell she saw it. I know he's here to stay, but she doesn't ... yet. Before I go pressing the accelerator here I want to make sure I've really got this gear engaged. Pretty soon I'll be sure, but it might be wise for me to get a couple of miles under my belt first.
Cobra, I still owe you a reply from your post today. Time for some football
Quote: I want to make sure I've really got this gear engaged. Pretty soon I'll be sure, but it might be wise for me to get a couple of miles under my belt first.
This makes good sense. Part of the New Rig's way of doing things is to do them on YOUR timetable. No more can you let her demand that you rush this process. You have to do things when YOU'RE ready (provided that doesn't mean "never," which I don't think it does anymore).
Maybe they're really fantasies about me...