Quote: I just realized that you're saying that she's pursuing divorce to show me that she's serious. Do you think she's waiting to see something from me that gives her permission to back down?
No, I don't think she's waiting for anything in particular from you. I see her as being more like you: all over the place. The single constant thread from her is her saying she wants a D, but I also don't see her taking any steps to initiate the real-world stuff that has to be done to make a D happen. I think she clings to the idea of the D to convince HERSELF that she doesn't have to put up with whatever she feels she had to put up with in the past and it's the one thing she can say to you to keep your attention and hold your feet to the fire. It's her ace in the hole.
In my experience, when someone wants a divorce, especially if their spouse is already living elsewhere, they go to a lawyer and they get papers drawn up and they do it. In my own case, I left the house one day and didn't go back. I'm not saying a divorce is impossible, but I just don't observe concrete signs that she's going to make it happen. Particularly since she has TOLD you that it's something you have to do together.
It seems very important to you that she say the words "I've changed my mind about the D" (not that that wouldn't be nice), but even if she did say them, you wouldn't be home free, kwim? Then you'd be worried about the next time she might bring it up. You'd be saying to yourself, "Well she said before that she wanted a D and she could say it again." You'd still be doing the tap dance to try to avoid her wrath and her threats.
And she could say, "I've changed my mind about the D," and the next day you could be served with papers.
The question you started with
Quote: Do you think she's waiting to see something from me
is from the Undifferentiated Rigley.
I think you are totally correct that she does not want to be the bad guy. Right now it seems to her that the only way out of her misery is to end the marriage, but for her to initiate it, she would have to be the bad guy. It seems like her desire NOT to be the bad guy is stronger than the desire to get out of the marriage.
You say that if she got mad enough at you, she could go through with it, but wouldn't that make her the ultimate bad guy?
What was the scene like when her parents split? Who was the bad guy there? I'm guessing her dad... but how was her mom during the process?
I think she clings to the idea of the D to convince HERSELF that she doesn't have to put up with whatever she feels she had to put up with in the past and it's the one thing she can say to you to keep your attention and hold your feet to the fire. It's her ace in the hole.
I see...and I think I agree. She's trying desperately to keep herself from slipping back into our previous life, and this is her way.
It seems very important to you that she say the words "I've changed my mind about the D" (not that that wouldn't be nice), but even if she did say them, you wouldn't be home free, kwim?
I do see what you mean. I'm in danger of going back to my old ways of trying to read her and respond. I do not want to do that because it drives me nuts. Instead, I need to concentrate on myself, and what I think is right, and not allow myself to be "on the hook" about the divorce...not let my emotions and responses be dependent on whether she keeps saying she wants a divorce, or backs down. But how then do I set my goal? If I'm not working toward a response from her, then what should I be working toward?
What was the scene like when her parents split? Who was the bad guy there? I'm guessing her dad... but how was her mom during the process?
Her mom took the kids and moved out to get away from the emotional abuse. She went back days later to get her things and found another woman's clothes in her closet. She gave him the opportunity to reconcile, but he wouldn't leave the OW. She withdrew her small inheritance from their bank account and filed for divorce. She was resolute, strong, principled, but was willing to forgive and work through it had he been willing to do so.
I’ve tried to pull together a post to you several times, but things have gotten busy at work for me now, after a nice slow summer… oh well….. I want to mention that from what you describe, your wife sounds like she is having a mid-life crisis. Go read up on the threads on that board. They all sound the same, and they all sound like what your wife is doing. Now I do not suggest you search for advice there, those people are convinced MLC is a bona fide disease, that what is required is patience until the fog of that disease lifts, that the stay at home spouse is not to blame and is really the victim, and that a few years of waiting is to be expected before the marriage can be reconciled. Its all BS in my opinion.
My point? Well, the advice the counselor gave you sounds a little like the advice on the MLC board. It is very important that your wife feels you two are on the same team, but that is because she is needing validation, support and compassion and you just can’t get that from an opponent. But as you are seeing, your wife has a hard time accepting that which she wants. She also has a very hard time understanding her own role in this mess (because of her FOO). She is in denial, as are ALL MLCers, and that denial causes them to project the problems of their FOO onto their partners in anger. As you have learned, the partners are not without guild either.
Since the MLCer is already in process of walking out the door, the approach is to not do or say anything to generate more anger, just agree to everything, do not react, but set up strong boundaries for self protection. This seems to help by not causing more friction, but I do not think it really touches the true problems. The MLCer, like your wife, wants to be loved, is aware of his/her true hurts, and will listen when those deep seated needs are honestly addressed.
Your talk with your wife seemed to touch her needs. I think you did great! I am not convinced that the recommended approach of just staying back, keeping some distance, is really needed in this case. Your wife is crying. That says everything. If she were really filing for D, if she had found her happiness elsewhere, she would not have such emotional reactions to you.
Look at those women who finally divorce. After years on the emotional roller coaster, they finally become numb and detached to their ex. Why? I believe it is because they no longer have any expectations from which they can be disappointed with reality. Disappointment REQUIRES a different outcome from that imagined (as does surprise). Divorcees let go of expectations, so the reality of the ex is the same as the imagined. There are no more illusions, no more disappointments and therefore no more emotional attachment.
Your wife is still reacting. She is still attached, though she thinks she is trying to break that bond. Your history is one of too much detachment. She wants more engagement from you. That is why I think the advice of that counselor is questionable.
So what should you do? I think you need to keep being completely and radically honest with her about YOURSELF. Don’t worry about understanding her or making her understand herself. Divulge to her all you are learning of yourself, all the faults you have made in the past, why you think you did what you did, what caused you to do those things, and how you are going to do things differently in your next relationship, who ever that may be. It would hurt to turn the tables a little and let her feel like she needs to want and chase you. Be the “man” like Dieda recommends so she can then follow you.
Comment to Lil: I just realized that you're saying that she's pursuing divorce to show me that she's serious.
Yes, I think so. If true, does keeping your distance and withholding your true emotions from her make sense?
Do you think she's waiting to see something from me that gives her permission to back down?
Who cares! Stop playing by her rules. YOU set the tone. YOU tell what is going to happen, what you intend to do to fix the marriage, how you will make her feel secure. She wants to hear some fight and jealousy in you. You don’t need her permission for this nor do you need to give her permission to not do something that you do not think she should be doing in the first place.
There are things in relationships that need to be maximized. Her validation and feeling like she is heard and loved is one of them. There are other things that need to be minimized. Her silly idea to get divorced is one of these. I think your giving too much credence to this can validate it. That can become an implied statement of your fear, which is not what she wants.
Quote: I wanted to write that I completely understand everything you are going through, as I am a high-desire wife and well, right now, I'm on the verge of asking for a separation. Of course, I don't want to, but sometimes, I feel like that's the only way to get through to my husband is to threaten him with leaving, and I ABSOLUTELY HATE THAT.
Does this sound like something your W could have written?
Good post, cobra. I agree with everything except this
Quote: Her silly idea to get divorced is one of these.
Of course, you didn't intend for Rig to actually SAY this to his W, but even thinking it is dismissive and disrespectful. Her concerns are not silly, nor is the idea to bail from an unsatisfying marriage.
This reminds me of the stock scene in a movie where a guy with a gun confronts another guy. The confrontee is terrified but his response is to belittle the confronter: "Oh, so now you're going to shoot me with that silly little gun?" The other guy replies, "Silly? How silly is THIS?!" and shoots him.
The fact is her anger got this ball rolling-- Rigley likely wouldn't have done it on his own. She is to be congratulated for getting fed up!
I know what you're saying and I agree. What I was meaning was that while Rig needs to validate her frustration, I think he needs to rise above the idea of D and not give it the status of becoming a "pit." The only way to do this is to be honest and really hear her concerns, but also to realize what she really wants, which is validation, not D.
So in that way, I mean D is actually silly, because she is not even doing what she wants for herself.
So in that way, I mean D is actually silly, because she is not even doing what she wants for herself.
Sometimes when it becomes so obvious that your partner is not going to step up to the plate, divorce is what happens. Perhaps neither party truly wants it, but the status quo simply cannot continue.
I fully agree that Rigley needs to <seriously> address her concerns, really listen to her. I disagree that in the event she doesn't feel validated or heard, divorce is silly.
I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Does this sound like something your W could have written?
Yes. I've heard my wife say similar things, like "why didn't you step up to the plate?" "why are you reading these books now...I've been reading them for years?" "why didn't you take the medicine?"
But here's the kicker. For me at least, the threats made it worse. I had the right intentions, just not the right information and skills. Her putting a gun to my head made sex even more high stress, less enjoyable, and physically more difficult. Every time my wife approached this issue with me, she did it in a way that put me on the defensive. I'm not saying that this was her fault, but ...
Quote: So in that way, I mean D is actually silly, because she is not even doing what she wants for herself.
Yes, I agree with this. That old expression comes to mind: "cutting off your nose to spite your face." I believe she indeed wants validation, and I believe she wants to be happily married to Rigley and have a fulfilling sex life with him. She's making her needs known in the only way she can think of, especially since she's driven by anger. Well, it worked, because she totally got his attention-- in fact, where in the past she felt neglected by him, these days she is all he can think of. So far so good.
But you're right... what she says she wants (the D) is not exactly what she wants (to be happily married, if not to Rig, then to someone).
