Rigley, suggest you study the last few posts in Mojo's thread... you can learn a LOT from the insights she has come up with about how pleasing yourself can reset the balance in a relationship.
WTG, Mojo.
Man, I loved reading that Mojo (can I call you Mojo?). Glad you're getting good sex, and really glad you're feeling so good about yourself in it.
Everything I'm learning tells me that I need to pay attention to what I want, feel, need, think, and give it priority over what everyone else wants, feels, needs, thinks. In my own experience in the last few weeks I've felt the best about myself when I was aware of those things and responded accordingly.
And I know that the nagging voice in the back of my head that says I'm being self-centered and sinning by thinking this way is just plain wrong. What use is there in giving one's life entirely over to the will of another? That simply invalidates the need for the one.
Quote: And I know that the nagging voice in the back of my head that says I'm being self-centered and sinning by thinking this way is just plain wrong.
I would suggest that you be careful not to get into a battle with that voice. Just regard it the way you would someone standing on a street corner selling tickets to the moon, or one of those infomercials that implies if you buy this gadget, you will grow hair, lose 50 lbs., and be a millionaire by the end of the week.
That voice and what it represents is misguided but not malicious. It's like a computer that was programmed incorrectly. Just turn your attention away from it. Dial down the volume. Don't feed energy into it by arguing with it, kwim?
The way you describe your grandfather is the way my bf's grandfather was (on his mother's side). He was an uneducated, circuit-riding preacher (I'm guessing he was born in the late 1880's, as my bf's mom is almost 90.) He used to punish the kids in ferociously cruel ways-- once when bf's mom and her sister were toddlers, they went outside of the front yard, which they were forbidden to do. He punished them by putting them up in the loft of the barn and leaving them in the dark overnight. During the night, he went outside and threw rocks at the barn to scare them. That was premeditated cruelty. I'm sure part of him thought he was doing it for their own good... but part of him just liked bullying weaker creatures. They were three and four years old, for God's sake!
You did what you needed to to survive, but now you've outgrown that way of being. Interesting that you're probably carrying your grandmother's anger as well as your wife's, in addition to your own.
Part of what I see going on with you as that you may be understanding a lot of what is being said, but letting that knowledge sink to the deeper levels of your emotions will take time. That said, I do believe there are things you can do to make yourself and your wife feel better.
To me, there are two aspects to control and assertiveness. One deals with attempts to directly control another’s thinking, reactions and way of feeling. This is what you seem to be doing by trying to make your wife see things from your perspective, trying to make her understand the error of her logic, trying to “fix” her. That is why she is getting pissed. It is not an acknowledgement or validation of her POV. It is just the opposite. (But if it would work, YOU would feel much better.)
Your wife wants and needs to feel she is in control of her life, which is understandable considering her background. (I also want to stress that EVERYTHING you say and do needs to be evaluated from the perspective of HER background, not yours.) So if she believes your mother is a manipulating b*tch, you really have now choice but to go along with her. Disagreeing with her will drive a wedge between you two, it will invalidate your W and make her angrier, and most importantly, standing up for your mother will not gain you anything either! At some point, every man needs to make a decision whether to stand by his wife or his mother. He cannot do both, so choose. So far you have tried to placate both, and it is driving your W crazy.
If you choose to align yourself with your wife, then exactly what she thinks of your mother (as an example) is not as important as the fact that she knows you agree with her point of view (however warped it may be). Let your W come to the realization on her own (or through other women) that her view is warped. Just don’t go telling your mom that your wife thinks she is nuts!
This brings me to the other aspect of control. What you CAN control are the parameters within which you are willing to accept the “dance,” i.e., boundaries. You and your wife are so enmeshed (or fused) due to your upbringing and lack of role modeling on the proper use of boundaries, that you each are trying to fulfill your own needs to the exclusion of the other (see the book “The Narcissistic Family” for more on this. Schnarch also says that people arguing to make their version of history the official, correct version is a couple fully enmeshed and in a power struggle.) Getting your spouse to react in a way to sooth you is a losing game, which is part of why I think you get these panic attacks. When she acts as you wish, you settle down. When she doesn’t, panic flairs up.
So instead set the ground rules that she must operate within. Think of this as setting the fence around the backyard for the dog to run, as Mojo talks about. Anywhere in the yard is fine with you, so the dog (your W) feels like there is freedom of choice, but that choice is still constrained by your boundaries. When I argue with others on this board about whether you can control someone else, this is what I am talking about, that you can “control” the other person by limiting choices. I want to make clear that I do understand the dog still has a choice of whether to stay in the backyard or not, in spite of the fence. So in that way you ultimately do not have real control, because the dog can always decide to jump the fence. The dog is making a decision to be constrained by the fence.
However you can take this one step further and make the consequences of fence jumping very unpleasant. That is where I say you have no obligation to be friends with your wife in the event of divorce. If she does not want to play in the yard, you do not have to give her amenities to make fence jumping more pleasurable. Do you get what I mean?
This all comes back to your original dilemma – to stop placating and pleasing others. Take a stand. Accept the fact that thee is no guarantee in life and nothing is certain and yes, IT IS a leap of faith that is called for. But the risk in taking that leap can less than you have been trained to believe. In the case of your wife, you now know that being firm should actually reduce risk, though it feels the opposite.
That meeting your wife scheduled, then postponed… waiting for her to reschedule is NOT setting the boundaries of the fence. You are waiting for her to set boundaries for YOU, to define the yard so you can then feel secure enough to run around and be happy. After a while you will realize the limitation of this and want to be the one setting the fence boundary, not her. She really wants to be the dog running round, happy and carefree. That is what she is doing with the wild partying, drinking, etc. What I think is frustrating her is that she does not see any fences out there, and that limitless unknown is scary, and she is too scared to venture out by herself, so she still clings to you. Venturing into the unknown is not her job anyway, it is yours. She is mad that you are not setting the boundaries, which if you did, would show he a level of caring.
We had a discussion a long time ago about jealousy. I am willing to be that you do not show jealousy. If so, your wife may have another reason to feel you don’t care for her. She would like to know that you will fight tooth and nail for her. I believe a certain amount of jealousy is healthy. Too much is destructive. It is s sensitive balance. But it does communicate boundaries.
My wife is similar. She thinks she needs to be as empowered as a man, but she does not realize all that entails. Your wife and mine need to realize their limits and operate within that margin of safety, where they can be happy. Blackfoot lectured me a lot on this, and it is a hard thing to understand, especially when you are raised your whole life to focus on your own comfort but make someone else responsible for it.
Coming full circle with this argument, the bottom line again comes back to fear – what ever fear is your particular flavor from your past. Control is a way to avert those fears, you are beginning to see this. Attachment theory is a way to gain a certain level of control over your partner by validating and soothing them in return for validation and soothing from them. It is a tit-for-tat arrangement. In fact, I think everything is, even “love,” for without the trading of favors, love quickly evaporates. Part of the trick is to understand just what favors spark the right response (you have read the “5 Love Languages?”)
So when you ask “what's the f*cking problem?!!!” I think the answer is not the need of each of you to agree to sooth each other and have sex, but the need to feel some level of control over your life, which in turn you both assume will comfort your emotions, but those very emotions are only manifestation of the trauma you experienced in your past. The trauma and fear is the heart of the matter.
Coming to terms with your anger is very important to you for various reasons, but for the marriage, it is only important in that it is the door to other emotions, including feelings of love (and also leads to healthy jealousy). Right now I am not sure your desire for your wife is purely based on love. I think it could well be mixed up with control and self soothing. Schnarch had an interesting discussion of a couple in which the H was HD, the W was LD. Once the W decided to let go of her expectations, to differentiate, much as Mojo discussed, the H suddenly realized he no longer had control over his wife. He had used his HD to guilt and control his wife, keeping the focus on her lack of drive and thus avoid his own issues (fear of abandonment). After he lost this control, he had to confront himself and he then lost his drive. His wife then became HD because she felt in control. Try to understand this in yourself so as not to get caught by the boomerang in case things turn around on your later.
So be VERY clear about your anger. It should NOT be directed at your wife, but at your past, not in a way to blame anyone, but to recognize that you two are just unfortunate victims of ignorant and unknowing people. Your wife is in the same boat. Her anger and blame at you is just as misplaced. Get on the same team with her.
I’ve strayed a little… getting back to that meeting your wife planned. YOU should take control. You can call her and tell her YOU want to talk. It doesn’t matter whether she is “ready” or not. She is most likely trying to find the emotional strength to tell you she is leaving, so I see not value in waiting for her to get there. Remember, don’t make it easy for her to jump over that fence! Limit some of her options. I think you are giving her too much room to run. Tell her she doesn’t have to be ready for the meeting, all she has to do is listen, that YOU have things you to say. Then tell her something along the lines of:
You are my wife. I will not divorce you nor will I go along with divorce. If you divorce me against my will, I will not be friends with you or having anything to do with you and I will fight for custody of my kids. I do care about you, I want you and I expect you, as my wife, to want me. I am also co-owner of our house and I intend to move back in immediately (to hell with your remaining lease). If you can’t live with me, then you can move out, but this is my house and I intend to live here. I WANT you to live with me.
I am in our marriage for the long haul. I will not leave you. I will do everything in my power to work on our marriage and to better understand and meet your needs. I accept all the harmful things I did to you in the past, I apologize for them and I vow not to repeat them, ever. You must come to terms with your issues and responsibilities. I will not tolerate you blaming me for your own issues. I will no longer put up with your wild ways. I am growing to be a self responsible adult, I expect you to do the same. Stop blaming me for all your shortcomings.
I will do everything I can to work with you, together as a team, to address OUR problems, to give you the understanding, compassion and security that I know you want. I also now that you love me and that the idea of us splitting is tearing you apart. It is tearing me apart. We have both been victimized. Lets stop blaming each other. Put aside your anger and your need for vengeance and listen to me. I never wanted to see you unhappy. But I did not know enough of what I was doing. I am learning. I am devoting myself to you and to our children. Give us another chance.
Well, I’ll let the other come up with ideas on what you could say, but I still think you need to take control, be assertive and lay it one the line what you really want. You will need to bare your soul.
There is something about what you've said that stirs me. I feel weak in my current arrangement. And that weakness seems to be getting worse in some ways, rather than better. That might be because of so much introspection. But it might also be, as you mention, because I have given her too much freedom in this relationship, and it is having unintended effects.
Let me get the point on which I disagree out of the way. I will not fight her for sole custody of the kids. She is a very, very good mother. They need her. I want them half of the time, but no more.
Now, let me address the issue of jealousy. Here's new information for you.
During one of the many talks we had pre D-day, my wife confessed that on a girls weekend with her best friend, she had kissed a guy in a bar. Her friend was really p!ssed, and wanted her to tell me (she'd also done the same on a trip 9 years before, she confessed minutes later). At the time, I was expecting her to say she'd had an affair, and so I was relatively relieved. I told her I forgave her. I asked her "how many guys have you kissed in your life?" The answer was 3. I told her I understood, but that I didn't want her to do it again.
In a later talk, she said that she felt something with those two that she'd never felt with me. THAT is the kind of thing that has sent me into a tailspin, and why I have probably given her more room in this relationship than I should have. It made me feel like I couldn't compete. Now, I totally feel like I can. I know that what's missing is confidence, and that I can can get that.
My point is, I showed little jealousy. Though she had to be relieved that I didn't berate her, it also had to undermine my desire for her that I rolled over so easily.
Cobra, you're going to keep me up tonight. I need to find out why what you say speaks to me, and decide if or how I need to close in boundaries.
Does anyone have an extra spine? I need a little reinforcement here.
I would suggest that you be careful not to get into a battle with that voice. Just regard it the way you would someone standing on a street corner selling tickets to the moon, or one of those infomercials that implies if you buy this gadget, you will grow hair, lose 50 lbs., and be a millionaire by the end of the week
This is helpful, Lil. When I do try to resolve it all, or fight it, I get really twisted up inside. It's one of those things I just can't argue with, I can only ignore and take my chances.
Let me get the point on which I disagree out of the way. I will not fight her for sole custody of the kids. She is a very, very good mother. They need her. I want them half of the time, but no more.
Let me clarify this point... of course it is in the best interests of the kids that you two share custody, if it comes to that, but that is not the purpose of this statement, is it? The statement is to take away some of her options, or at least make her get the feeling that you are, and in so doing stand up for yourself, the kids, and thus her.
When you start to negotiate, don't begin at the point you want to end up. Besides, all this would be for naught if she would settle down and negotiate rationally. Since there is little chance she will do that, you've got to position yourself from an emotional perspective. That is the language she is talking right now. A little theatrics may not hurt.
So I've slept on it, and decided what I can and can't use. What stirs me about your advice is the premise that I can and need to bring in my boundaries in this relationship. That I given her "freedom" in the form of not enforcing my own boundaries, and this has had the unintended effect of increasing anxiety and resentment between us.
What I also like is the picture you painted of me moving back in. I like that it sets a standard for more or less what my role _should_ be in the relationship.
BUT, carrying out the plan you laid out would require more confidence and a greater understanding of myself, my role, and our relationship than I currently have. When it came time to go "off script" I don't think I could continue to operate in that frame of mind....YET.
I will keep that scenario in mind, but for right now, I've got to get centered again. I need to pick one or two things to work on, and trust that I'll have time to get to the rest.
I just got a call from my wife. She needed information about life insurance, etc. She asked if we could meet Sunday to discuss things. I said maybe. She asked why I didn't know. I said because I wasn't sure I was ready. She said she needs to move on, that she feels like we're in limbo. That she wants to let go of all this anger and resentment and doesn't feel like she can do so until there's resolution.
She was sweet. But I think she wants out.
I have a coaching appt. in half an hour, so I didn't say anything about not wanting a divorce. I told her I'd call her later with the info she wanted.
OK, I met with my coach. He had some interesting things to say. I'll post them here for everyone's benefit and discussion:
Precede all this with "my coach thinks":
I should not say she'll have to do all the divorce work, or that I won't be friends with her. It won't be effective. She'll see this as more resistance at this point...more of the same. Also the friendship thing is really important for the development of the kids.
At this point she is likely deadset on divorce. She keeps saying "I'm through...don't you get it?" I need to invite her to a relationship that different than the one she's leaving. When divorce busting is effective, it's because the walkaway sees that.
I should work into the conversation several times that I want her to be happy. In the back of my mind I'll know that I am her best chance for happiness, but I should keep that to myself.
I should do something like open the discussion with "I've been considering the pros and cons of divorce, and you know what, I'm seeing more pros than I expected. Like, for instance, we've talked about how I felt like you were mean to me a lot. Do I really want to engage in a relationship where I don't feel respected?" I should not conclude this with anything like "but I still think it's the wrong option."
If she hands me papers, I should take them and look over them with her as if I were reviewing them for a friend. Looking over the details, and pointing out the interesting things, acknowledging the thought behind it.
The goal here is to form a partnership with her, not to argue or confront her.
She's assuming that I'll never change. She thinks that going back to our relationship is a death sentence, and that I would gladly sacrifice her happiness to keep her in it.
Just as I've grown, she has, and I should look for an opportunity to subtly applaud her for that, without being romantic: "I know this is hard for you, and lately you've made me feel respected when we've talked on the phone, and I appreciate it."
I need to live like I'm her best option.
----
I told him the idea of "going along with the divorce" scared the hell out of me. He asked whether I had any way of stopping it. The answer is no.
Honestly, his idea about acknowledging the pros feels right. I need to turn this from a me against her thing back into a cooperative thing, and hope to steer it toward reconciliation.
I can't remember if it was in the divorce busting book.
But I'll paraphrase "the grass isn't greener on the other side
of the fence if there is no fence".
