You are very correct that Cobra's sitch and Chromes are vastly different. In Cobra's defense Mrs. C has been downright mean, rude and inappropriate with him many times. My point all along has not been about plastic surgery per se (I would pay good $$ to get some fabulous ta tas in a red hot minute but we have lots of other more pressing things to spend money on and my H is wildly against it). My point has been that there is no foundation in that R for that kind of "honesty" about his preferences. You have to have a bare minimum of tolerance, loving interaction, kindness, belief in the other's good intention before you can have a conversation that goes - gee honey, seems like you are uncomfortable with you body and I want you to know that I love you and am attracted to you as you are but we do have the $$ and I have no problem with using it to do whatever it takes to enhance your self image - clothes, personal trainer, plastic surgery, psychotherapy etc... Chrome's R may very well be able to handle that conversation. Of course, whenever a S undergoes major transformation - plastic surgery, losing a bunch of weight, whatever weird things can happen. They can decide that they are now "too good" for their old S anyway. I've seen it happen. I really don't see it as a feminist issue in any way and never had a feminist agenda attached to it - Mrs. C did but I did not. I have no issue with men being attracted to nice breasts and as I said, I would fix mine in a hot minute.
BTW - Cobra - this convo was intended to reply to trying and Chrome not to you.
OK, I'll hijack a little more, but only because you asked...
But if looks interfere with ability (i.e. being so overweight you get tired after 30 seconds) or intent (having a part of you that makes you so self-conscious it turns you off instantly), then perhaps it is in the best interest of your M to change that.
Even though you are dancing around stating how you really fell, and I'm sure how carefully edited your word to be sure they are politically correct, this is really the core part of the issue, isn’t it, at least for men. Like so many say, a man will move mountains for someone he loves, for someone who inspires him. I know you married out of love, unlike myself. Were you first attracted to your wife and then decided to marry her because you had visions of how beautiful she would look with a saggy belly and breasts?
Ladies, men will accept these body changes if there is the emotional connection to overcome it. Women are not so concerned with physical appearances so a man's values seems to shallow and superficial. Therefore just through out any acknowledgment of those silly wishes and replace them with a higher, gold standard of what love is all about, right?
If there is a strong emotional bond between the two, then this "feminist gold" standard makes sense because the man feels it. It is the primary purpose for woman, but it is not for man. Why can't you women get this point?
If the emotional connection is not strong enough, the man will naturally wonder if there is something else out there. And when he wonders this, he is not likely to imagine another woman with saggy belly and breasts. He may end up with just that because his new partner creates a stronger emotional bond. But if he could choose between two women with which he has an equally strong emotional connection, but one is more physically attractive, guess which one he will pick?
Men are visual. It is part of who we are. We like our women to look nice. We can overlook that, but we would always prefer a nice body and appearance. That is what we are. Accept it.
TTHO,
Of course this is all insecurity driven, but by myself and my wife. When I say she does not dress up around the house, I am not talking about “dolling up.” I mean that last weekend she did not shower until Sunday night. She stayed in pajamas most of the weekend, working on her papers. When working around the house, she puts on old jean shorts that are stained, ripped, rumpled with tank tops that are in similar condition. She says she does this so as not to ruin her better clothes. I tell her that makes no difference since I never (ok, rarely) get to see her in those good clothes anyway, or at least good clothes just for my benefit.
She has problems with intimacy and her self image. She feels uncomfortable when a man admires her sexually. She feels like she is being molested or something, though she claims to never have been sexually molested or abused. If this is true, then her issues come from her FOO and I am the lucky one who gets to deal with the consequences. Does that make me angry? Sure it does.
So is this really insecurity on my part or am I just reading the message she is sending, whether she does so voluntarily or not. If she doesn’t like my reaction, then she could send a different message. Yes, I’ve been through plenty of therapy to identify my issues. The problem with therapy is that it also teaches you how you partner is not living up to his/her obligations and why you have a right to feel angry with having to live with less.
Your last paragraph is a good summation of my marriage and one I have discussed before. Many people marry for the wrong reasons. If she had not gotten pregnant, neither of us would be here. But like it or not, that is what we have to deal with. We also have to deal with the very real option of how long to stay in the marriage. Until the kids get out of high school, or should it be college, maybe even sooner? But stay together forever? That hasn’t really crossed on my radar screen and I doubt it has on hers.
BUT, for it to become an option for me, she can change herself in ways that would make me want to be with her, that make herself into an inspiration to me. That includes the emotional connection, her dress and her body. Frankly, should I ever elect to split, it will be because I see other better opportunities in the market, right? And hopefully I can get the kind of whole relationship I want with that person. My wife can do this too, but she needs to rise to the challenge.
What I have been ticked about is her position, and the position of the ladies on this board, that men should not be so shallow as to focus on the physical but should accept a woman for who she is, for the love her feels toward her. If I do not feel love toward my wife, then I need to shake myself up, uncover my issues, and find a way to love her like a “real” man should. BS I say. That thinking is all feminism. There is nothing wrong with my “macho” desires. I’m tired of having to suppress myself because it is socially unacceptable to women’s ideals. And that is the crux of my issue with feminism.
Sure all this is scary for me, and I am sure it is for my wife. It is realistic IMO. Realism about inherent risk will always involve a certain amount of fear and insecurity.
I'd like to seem a few more men step up to the plate and honestly state how they feel. Don't sugar coat it out of fear of being beaten up by the women.
My point has been that there is no foundation in that R for that kind of "honesty" about his preferences. You have to have a bare minimum of tolerance, loving interaction, kindness, belief in the other's good intention….
I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe part of where we disagree is how to build that foundation. You think that by being loving, supportive, compassionate I can build a solid foundation with her. The funny thing is that she has often said the very same thing. But what I experience every time I do that is her return to her shell. For someone like her, too much of this “good” stuff makes her uncomfortable. So what would endear me to other women actually seems to cause her to retreat.
The power and control issue also comes into play. IMO she reads the loving, supportive, compassionate message from me as an acceptance of her power and control over the family. She gets comfortable in hat respect and moves back to her comfort zone, which is to control as much as possible to avoid some unforeseen disaster.
So I have not found that way of building our foundation to be affective. Remember, we both grew up in very narcissistic family settings where neither of us got our needs met. I long for more closeness to fell comfortable. She longs for more independence to feel comfortable. Until these fundamental needs/reactions are “fixed” there is little on which to build the loving, supportive, compassionate stuff.
I also think this is what eats at you women so much. I can fully understand how what I am doing, that seems to be working quite well with my wife, would totally turn you off. Why do you think I have been so confused for so long as well? Hairdog, I hope you’re listening (after all, this is your hijacked thread! )
The way you explained the not even showering part and stained jean shorts is pretty extreme and I can see where that could be irritating. I guess I was thinking along the lines of how my weekends sometimes are. I like to put on some sweats and give my face a breather from the make-up if I don't have anywhere to go. But I do showr everyday and do very much care about personal hygiene.
Cobra...
Could you maybe schedule a date night where she would have a great reason to dress up? Also I have a question have she ever looked really good to you and you made a comment about how sexy she looked? I am wondering if she has this same grossed out way of handling it even with you?
Let me also say I am not against plastic surgery. I will be honest I am scared of it. The pain, anesthesia, etc. But I am not against women getting it IF it is what they truely want and desire for themselves. I don't think anyone should be bullied into it. I also know as a woman I never would have expected child birth could do so much to your body. It can be a really hard thing for a woman to take. I know like a circumstance that happened with a friend of mine. She had 4 children and is very thinn. On the outside looks GREAT for a woman who had 4 kid's. But appaently her stomach is wrinkled and saggy some. She works out ALL the time and it has made no difference on her stomach at all. She could do crunch after crunch and nothing. It really btohers her but she is scared to death of surgery. I know it would kill her if her husband said get a tummy tuck or I just can't be attracted to you. because it is the one issue that bothers her the most about herself. She to doesn't like to take her shirt off.
Also maybe you could get her a make-over or something like that. Then make a great deal about how good she looks after. Maybe she just has a poor image about herself.
The problem I have is that she is focused on meeting the kid’s needs over her own. I have given up on the idea of a date night because the few times we did this, she was always preoccupied with the kids, even if we had a sitter. They are older now, but over the past few months I have suggested that the family go out for dinner. Too much trouble for her. She has to get ready, doesn’t like to wait in line, has too much other school stuff to do and not enough time to do it.
Also, I did not push the idea in any way of the boob job. She is the one who has brought up the tummy tuck issue. I mentioned that if she wanted to do that I would like a boob job at the same time. That was the end of my comment.
As for a makeover? I might try that someday, but in the past its usually been the same old excuse that we can’t afford it, she’s got other things to do, other things to buy the kids. Of course it is all deflection. So can you see that what you suggest is intimacy building but there is not foundation on her side to accept that intimacy? She’s got to get through her self esteem issues first.
The only thing I will agree to is that my giving more support and compassion to her might help her feel safer about addressing her issues. It might. But I’ve not seen any evidence to support that in the 15 years we’ve been married. That type of statement from her is really code for “accept me as I am,” which in turn is code for “I do not want to deal with my fears.”
LOL I was thinking about a drastic step my husband did. I had fallen into a mind set that I wasn't sexy. I use to dress in sweat pants almost all the time. Well, I had lost a bunch of weight being 45 pounds which put me in a size 4. My husband went and threw out all my sweat pants. Along with a couple shirts that he hated. He replaced them with some sexier clothes like a couple pairs of low rise jeans, sexier looking shirts and some heels. This sentiment reallt touched me that he went and looked and knew what size I wore. That he must find me sexy that he would pick these kind of clothes for me. Then when he commented how great I looked in the clothes I was beaming with pride. I was a little agitated at first about him throwing clothes away. But LOL it was so sweet when he handed me the gifts that had clothes.
LOL maybe you could throw out those old horrible shorts and tank tops.
Do you think maybe date night could work now that they are older? If she is the one bringing up the stomach thing there is another none evasive procedure out there to make the stomach look better. I think it is called thermal something. Basically like a wand instrument they use to roll over the belly area.
I know what it is like to be a mom and put the kid's first. I am guilty of that a lot.My family buys me gifts now instead of money because they know the money would be spent on the kid's. But lately I have found balance. I have found that taking time for myself really does make me an even better mom. I really really enjoy date nights now!
Karen, As I recall the picture you posted some time ago, you are an absolutely stunning woman. Why would you want to spoil it with plastic boobs? Bigger isn't better, especially if they are fake. The media has really done a number on women with their portrayal of Barbie dimensions being the ideal.
I agree with GGB. Do you know what slutty me would do if I had small breasts? I would stop wearing a bra and start wearing all my shirts so the goods were almost showing- like those heroine chic supermodels. You will drive the men nuts! Also- when you see the phrase "Underwire Support" it should be translated "Metal Torture Prison". Small is beautiful.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Christ Almighty man. I think I need to take Writing Compostion 873: How to talk to Cobra so that he uncerstands what you are saying.
Quote: Even though you are dancing around stating how you really fell, and I'm sure how carefully edited your word to be sure they are politically correct,
LOL Are we projecting a little bit here? YOU may prefer bigger breasts, and YOU may prefer your W to have a tummy tuck, but that in no way bothers me. The funny thing is later you actually admit that if the EC was there, it wouldn't bother you so much. That is precisely the point I was making, and I don't think I sugar-coated it. If something is causing self-esteem problems that derail intimacy, then I feel like I should have the right to suggest a change. Preferably that change would come about in the form of the intimacy not being derailed, but if a boob job would make her "feel like a natural woman" (/sarcasm off) and thus be hot to trot, I'm all for it. But frankly, surgery is messy business. Anytime you cut someone open, there is a chance of complications. I don't care how low the percentages are. Think about how you would feel if your children became motherless because your W died on the operating table because you liked bigger boobs. I know, I know, life is risky. But there are some risks you need to evaluate more carefully if they are worth it or not. The risk of a car/plane accident while traveling on vacation is there, but there is a greater risk of having a crap life if you stay cooped up at home all the time. Again, not saying cosmetic surgery is to be avoided at all costs, you just need to weight the risks/benefits. As I see it, from your approach to the subject, your W might get the surgery and then resent you for it. Is that worth it?
Frankly if you REALLY REALLY want your W to have bigger boobs that is between you and her, and not really part of my question. I just wanted to get a feel from the ladies as to how a certain request might be received. How that request is delivered should it become something I want to do is another matter entirely.
Quote: I'd like to seem a few more men step up to the plate and honestly state how they feel. Don't sugar coat it out of fear of being beaten up by the women.
OK. I honestly don't care about bigger boobs or a flat stomach, so long as it doesn't impair our SL, affection, or intimacy. I say that with no fear of repercussion. Are we clear?
Regards, Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Yes - I think the major issue between you and I is that we differ markedly on "where the line is." It isn't that I think you should spend every moment kissing Mrs. C's proverbial behind but rather a more balanced approach is what I would strive for. I would strive for that exactly because of both of your FOO issues. I'm not at all surprised that when you are supportive Mrs. C tends to crawl back into her shell some. That isn't always a bad thing - depends on what is going on in that shell. Sometimes people crawl back in because they need to reasses things.
What if your response to "I need a tummy tuck" was like I suggested - take off the blouse (heck, rip it in 1/2 if you want) and kiss that belly and tell her you want her. I think that would be a real change in response from you. Personally, I love the idea of throwing out the crappy clothes or making a "date" where you take her shopping and help her pick some "at home" clothes that you think are attractive too. She is wearing that crap because she is hiding.
I think it is beyond funny that you think the women on this board are throwing around a bunch of feminist rhetoric. I don't think any of us have issues with our H's being physically attracted to attractive women. Most of us strive to be attractive in order to attract our H. Guess what - we women also like guys that are well groomed, have decent clothes and nice bodies. So, it isn't about "Cobra is is sh*thead because he likes a hot body". My honest concern Cobra is that a lot of your energy just gets spent in what I feel is in direct opposition to your stated goals. If your goal is to create intimacy with Mrs. C then I would be careful of "tearing her down" - work on the wall not who she is as a person. If your stated goal is to stay together until the kids are a certain age - how far are you from that? Anyway Cobra, in the end, I think you have made some rather valiant efforts in your M.
GGB,
Well, it kinda comes down to Cobras statements about what "men like". Our culture has taught that certain stuff is attractive. I wouldn't mind coming a little closer to the cultural ideal. However, I wish I knew what my H liked because I would work on that instead. He quit buying clothes for me because he would buy me stuff that is so matronly I never wore it. The single thing I know is that he prefers color to black clothing - he thinks it is more attractive. He doesn't like a lot of makeup but no makeup is simply not an option for me - I think he responds better when I wear nice, understated makeup.
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