You stand by your decisions and statements and I understand that this is your battle to fight and your life to live. However, I also stand by mine.
Mrs. Nop is talking about conflict and resolution within the RELATIONSHIP not about conflict/resolution regarding someone's basic physical attributes. I stand by my feeling that when you choose to make a negative comment about a body part that the person has no control of (save for expensive and risky plastic surgery) you immediately reduce your credibility as being someone who loves them. All Mrs. Cobra heard was "he doesn't love me." Of course, Mrs. Cobra has feelings about her body and your reaction to it. Frankly, knowing that doesn't change her assertion that she likes to separate emotions and sex. In fact, in my former R it really brought that point home. I could no longer have sex with him WITHOUT separating the emotions and the sex. My basic emotion became distrust (for multiple reasons), I knew he didn't respect me, didn't like my body so if I wanted to continue the marriage I knew that required some sex therefore, I separated the two. When that became too difficult, when I realized that I was only a shadow of the self I wanted to be, when I wanted the emotions to be part of whatever R I was in - well, I had to leave.
I understand that you are entitled to your preferences and I have no doubt that Mrs. Cobra would look great with a tummy tuck and nice set of new ta tas but Cobra, you need to learn to love what IS. IMO - you added some bricks to that wall (that was why the comment was referred to as "stupid"). I don't think you are "wrong" to want to snuggle up to a nice body - that isn't what I'm saying. However, if I were in Mrs. C's place I would be thinking - well if he wants that what is next? A new nose? Lipo?
Cobra - the reason I said you owe her an apology is (a)it buys back some credibility as a "loving" spouse, (b)the remark was poorly timed and (c)it was clearly unsupportive of her as a woman. You don't need to apologize for what you are attracted to - that isn't what I mean. However, SHE isn't responsible for modeling what you are attracted to when it requires drastic measures just as Lou shouldn't have to supply his W with as much designer crap as she can have just to buy her affections.
Don't worry, I'm done with this topic now. If you can't hear it. You can't hear it.
This has nothing to do with baiting. I am not trying to bait you or anyone else. And I don’t think my comment was that snotty. I think it was in about the same spirit as the comment from TTHO.
Lil,
I am doing my own work to increase my vision. It may not be in a way that you and other women necessarily like, including my wife. I do not have to see things the way she would like me to. I only need to see them as I believe is best. That even includes what my wife may see as a wrong viewpoint. But it is mine, and I don’t need to change it. If it creates trouble for her, she can bring it up. If I still do not want to change, then she can decide whether to stay or go. So far I am not aware of any such concerns from her. Our issues have more to do with validation and soothing than anything else. I have no intention of bending with the wind.
Karen,
I fully understand what Mrs Nop is referring to. My wife’s physical appearance does concern the relationship. It concerns me. Women may not be so concerned with physical appearance in a man. Good for them. I am not a woman and I like what I like. And Guess what, if W doesn’t like the idea of plastic surgery maybe she can propose something else, like sprucing up her appearance around the house just for me, even though no one else may be coming over that day. She does it every weekday for those at her work. She does it when company comes over. There are plenty of other ways she can increase her attractiveness to me. Top of my list would be a boob job but I might settle for something else. Maybe she could try to lose a little more weight, wear makeup every now and then.
You and I know enough to know the issue isn’t really about boobs (well not entirely anyway). It is about what SHE can do to sooth ME, just as she has her list of things that I can do to sooth her. Her appearance is on my list. For that I make no apologies.
Remember, love is lacking in our relationship. Stop assuming we have some great underlying love that only needs to be rekindled. I am faced with the decision to patch things together with this woman and hopefully have a satisfying, intimate, sexual relationship like I have always wanted, or I can still divorce and go find someone else who will make me happy (or is it happier). The kids are a major factor, so I will continue in this marriage. But I also know that I cannot lie to myself. I do not want to end up like CeMar, feeling trapped by duty, but with no intimacy. If it is a lack of attraction that promotes such a lack of intimacy, then it can all be blamed on me. That is fine. I can’t be attracted to what is not attractive to me, or maybe to rephrase this, I can be more attracted to her should she be willing to help create more attraction. I really don’t give a flip whether that is shallow or not. That is me.
So this whole matter does concern conflict and resolution for our relationship. It may not be an issue to her, but it is to me. What I feel from you, Lil and Heather is an attempt to totally invalidate an issue that is important to men, or at least to me. Maybe you can’t hear it. I think you are getting all riled up because I am not towing the feminist mantra. Call that blind if you want. I call it my male preference. I don’t need to apologize for that. At some point I have no problem apologizing to her about hurting her feelings. But I will not apologize for what I want. She can then apologize to me for hurting my feelings when she tells me there is no way in hell she is getting a boob job. Fair enough.
I hope the other men on this board don’t cave into this type of feminist bashing either. Stand for what you want. Then let the pieces fall where they may.
Quote: I hope the other men on this board don’t cave into this type of feminist bashing either. Stand for what you want. Then let the pieces fall where they may.
What if she took the opportunity, right before sex, to express how tiny and unsatisfying your penis is? There's something to be said for honesty, but tact and timing are important, too. It sounds like you have the honesty part down.
I have in no way been doing any "feminist bashing". I specifically said that you are entitled to your preferences. So don't even give me that baloney. FWIW - I believe that both partners need to try to be attractive to the other. There is nothing wrong with wanting that - a little makeup, a cute outfit - partners are definately entitled to that.
I don't assume that you and Mrs. C share a "great love" that must be rekindled. However, I am responding to the basics of sharing a loving relationship. If you can't do that, you can't create this intimacy you speak of wanting. So, why bother? Stay with Mrs. C and the kids and get a big breasted nympho on the side and be happy.
As I said before, I am done with the topic of why your comment was hurtful to the relationship and ill timed. However, I will note that I have at no time issued any steryotypical insults your way.
cobra, there is nothing wrong with you wanting Mrs. Cobra to have a boob job. I am not invalidating that pov-- why do you insist on reading my comments that way? Get this: I believe that your preferences vis a vis your wife's appearance are totally valid. So please don't read that wrong again, okay?
My problem is that you told her of your preference very bluntly WHILE she was vulnerable (as NOP pointed out) when you were ML. The fact that you were honest in expressing a valid pov does not negate the fact that you were wrong to bring it up when you did THE WAY you did, and then label her reaction as rooted in FOO issues. What you said was rude-- evn though authentic AND true-- and rudeness is not the way to foster intimacy. I'm through with this particular discussion.
I disagree. Your very rebuttal of my male desires sounds very much like a form of bashing because you are saying that my wishes for a boob job are over the top on things which can be asked for. This is what I am disagreeing on. I can ask for anything I want and I should feel free to do so.
Lil,
My problem is that you told her of your preference very bluntly WHILE she was vulnerable (as NOP pointed out) when you were ML.
And that is why I am willing to apologize to her, for hurting her feelings but not for expressing what I want.
The fact that you were honest in expressing a valid pov does not negate the fact that you were wrong to bring it up when you did THE WAY you did, and then label her reaction as rooted in FOO issues.
I will agree to this, and maybe it wasn’t so much FOO based as feminist based.
What you said was rude-- evn though authentic AND true-- and rudeness is not the way to foster intimacy.
I hear ya, but I wasn’t trying to foster intimacy….. That phase is still somewhere down the road.
Well, I'm still not clear on how reacting against going for a major cosmetic surgical procedure is feministic, but I'm happy to drop the discussion as well.
Well, I know this discussion may be "ending", but I had a thought. What if your S has some physical aspect that is interfering with their sexuality? Say for example the fact that a woman has small breasts means that she is constantly trying to hide her nudity, if anything remotely referencing breasts comes up she gets out of the mood, etc. Would the spouse be out of line suggesting a change at that point?
I guess my POV is looks don't really matter, all that matters is intent and ability, iykwim. But if looks interfere with ability (i.e. being so overweight you get tired after 30 seconds) or intent (having a part of you that makes you so self-conscious it turns you off instantly), then perhaps it is in the best interest of your M to change that.
I'll admit I have something akin to this situation at play. After having twins, my W's stomach is rather wrinkly and there is this large cleft from a hernia or something. It in no ways bothers me, which I have made clear to her on a number of occasions. After one incident of her being self-conscious, I pulled her shirt up, held her hands down, and kissed her all over her stomach (which led to ... well). But she still will deflate if my hand rubs her stomach. Now granted, I am not in favor of such major surgery to correct this problem on a whim, but if we have the money and the time and it continues to be a major issue for her, I think I would be within rights to make the suggestion.
I know this isn't really what ya'lls argument is about, I just wanted some thoughts. Plus I hate to see this hijack die so quickly.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chrome you are sweet. But see in your post you can feel the love and respect for your wife. So that is the big difference in your post. You would be saying it out of love to help your wife if she had issues about her stomach that continue. In other words you would be willing to support her but is not a prerequisite to marriage with you. Just to make a strong point on this subject was this in any way placed into your marriage vows for any man on this board....
I shall vow to always look attractive to you. I vow to always soothe you in any way that I can as far as my appearance goes. I agree that if my stomach gets out of whack from bearing your children I shall go under medical procedures to correct that. I vow to when my breats start to sag or get smaller with age that I will also go under the knife and go under yet another medical procedure.
Hmmmm I never heard those things in my vows. I hate when people change so much after marriage. Be honest with your sexist wishes BEFORE marriage.
Okay but enough of that. I kind of see Cobra's situation at a different angle. I think he is very insecure as a man. I don't mean that to bash him in any way. But maybe he hasn't noticed this. Maybe this is something he could get therapy for. Because it is this very insecurity that I believe drives him to be so harsh and mean with his wife. Just his comment about how she dresses for others at work nice so she should do this at home for me well, to me shows insecurity. Because we all know that every day we have to dress for success. But during the weekend I know myself I like to let my face take a breather from the make-up. I sometimes like to put on a really comfy pair of sweats and just wind down before another weeks passes. I also feel the same way about my husband. he busts his azz all week to support our family. During the weekend he should wind down all he wants. I wouldn't care if he stayed in his sweats and comfy sports team sweatshirt. But see I love him. I love him for him. He don't have to run around in hair gel, a suit, and cologne for me to be attracted to him. But see Cobra thinks, well, she does this for everybody at work and looks all nice I am left out. See here is where I think his strong insecurity stems from. His wife doesn't love him. They also have a SSM if he doesn't push. It is him that HAS to push for this. So he isn't desired by his wife nor loved by his wife. For the most part sounds like he isn't even respected either. So why not bash her in every way he can, place all the blame, and now even dig into the appearance part. Because deep down he is angry that he isn't loved, desired, or respected. He is trying to cover up that hurt by lashing out.
TTHO, good points. Cobra has said many times that he and his W don't love each other and never did. They're just together out of a sense of responsibility for the family. A trying situation at best.
But see in your post you can feel the love and respect for your wife. So that is the big difference in your post. You would be saying it out of love to help your wife if she had issues about her stomach that continue. In other words you would be willing to support her but is not a prerequisite to marriage with you. Just to make a strong point on this subject was this in any way placed into your marriage vows for any man on this board....