Thanks for taking the time to reply. Sorry for the continuing hijack Hairdog.
I’ve been thinking this over a little before posting. This is how I see it. What I am dealing with is very much like the “Tyranny of the Lowest Common Denominator” that Schnarch mentions. That dynamic also relates to Dr. Laura’s thoughts that men fall into the trap of pleasing the wife and compromising on what they truly want. In the end, neither person expresses their desires for fear of upsetting the other. The relationship slowly settles into boredom and the drive dies out. Both people can also end up walking on eggshells.
If you believe in the various theories discussed on this board, and I do believe in them, then I think it is important that you walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I am doing my best to do this.
The most I can see as an error in my boob job comment is the possibility that maybe the encounter at that time could have been better, so the timing of my comment was poor. But on the other hand, the encounter was about like all others in our relationship so I don’t think anything was lost. We had our regular, mechanical sex.
Regarding Mojo’s comment that it was stupid… well may not. I actually think it was rather helpful. Did it bother my wife and make her upset? Yes. And that is why it was good. Remember, this is the woman who said “Don’t mix sex with emotions.” She is the one who lives in denial that she has any feeling toward me. She was also in denial of why she got upset in the first place, justifying it as my lack of respect toward women and feminism, when her reaction really had nothing to do with that. She was upset because I hurt her feelings, plain and simple. That means she has feelings toward me. There are times when she has to face this. This was one of those times.
We are patching our relationship back together. We still have fights and arguments. I have no illusion that we are in a position to build any real intimacy on the still shaky foundation we have. It is simply not possible with all the baggage we carry. I am see us still in the early stages of relationship building, trying to stabilize that foundation, but to me that means identifying the real issues and how we really feel about them (not to mention why we feel that way). Trying to build on an unstable foundation is pointless. I’ve been down that road and we actually end up taking two steps back for every step forward. So at this point in our relationship, my purpose is not to even worry about building great intimacy between us. I do not believe it can be done. For now, intimacy can only go so far before she will back peddle.
However some intimacy is becoming more comfortable to her, which is why I said the marriage has improved greatly. Compared to where we were a year ago, it is like night and day. We can talk and argue over issues, but things settle down the next day and she is usually willing to talk. Before she would use the silent treatment for a couple of weeks. So there is improvement.
None of this happened by my cuddling her, giving her hugs, flirting with her, or any of that confident, sexual male stuff. It all happen by my finding the resolve to end the marriage if need be, and fight tooth and nail for my kids, my rights and my property. I mentioned before that when dealing with a bully (and at one time she was a bully) you must never blink. That has been a slow and hard lesson for me, one that Rigley and Hairdog are now trying to learn. To succeed, I have had to become a bully in my own way. I had to focus on myself only, not her (I don’t mean to imply I was ignoring the kids). I had to show her that I was willing and able to sink all the way down to the power level and throw out all respect for rights and laws if need be and do what I want to do in order to show her that I could, and that she could not do the same to me. I could protect myself. I had the means and the will to do it. I think she has finally came to accept this.
I truly believe that when we were discussing divorce and she heard the kids say they wanted to stay in the house regardless of who owned the house, she came to a turning point and realized she had to start negotiating in good faith. (I do not know where my kids had the great insight to take the position they did. Possibly the counselor told them to respond in this way should it ever came up. Possibly they saw it as the best way to stay neutral. But I greatly admire them for doing this! It took guts on their part! More guts than I sometimes see on this board.)
Mrs Nop laid it out plain and simple in her comment on “The Superior Man” thread:
There were two things that worked in our relationship - conflict and resolution.
Amen to that for it is the ONLY way to move forward. It is the same idea that Schnarch puts forth with the crucible. It is the same formula used by all successful couples on this board. Go check the threads of those who have turned their relationship around. Conflict and resolution. If you are stuck and not moving forward, ask yourself if you have truly used conflict to clear the core, bottom line issues that are bothering you and that you know are bothering your spouse. Or do you just try to sidestep it?
My boob job comment did nothing to build intimacy. But it did help bring down some of that wall preventing intimacy. Since our argument, and her realizing her own deflections, and then hearing from me that I want closeness and intimacy in our relationship, she has been much more open, talkative and cooperative. I can tell she is trying to do her part, she has said so a few times.
So do I regret my statement? No, I do not. There may have been a better time to bring it up, but then again, I could argue that my timing could not have been more perfect. You can decide as you like. I know that we stepped forward, not backwards because of it (and the associated conflict and resolution that followed).
As for those of you who think I should be called out for not taking my wife to Hawaii, well my Dad did ask that she come, I did invite her, and she declined. I was perfectly content to accept this as I feared we would end up in nothing but fights once we got there. I suspect she feared the same. I also do not like her going on trips and preventing the kids from playing and having fun like kids. We were in the ocean. She is terrified of the ocean. When she gets anxious she cracks down on the kids. When they protest, she cracks down harder. At some point I lose it because of the injustice of her “bullying.” Better she does not go on trips with us until she can either resolve some of her own anxiety or the kids are old enough to dampen her protective feelings.
I just recently finished piecing together a movie from the trip. We watched it just this week. When she saw some of the fun the kids had, the wrestling, teasing, skin diving, swimming, jumping off rocks into the water, she said “I see why you guys say you have more fun on your own.” That was not a comment I ever made to her. It had to come from one of the kids. I hope she listened to herself. I do not regret my comment, and for the time being I will not apologize for it. I might sometime in the future, when she is comfortable enough to accept it.
TTHO, as for the idea that I am “operating as an independent rather then a team” know that the team concept is my idea of family. The independent is her idea. She did not grow up in a family that took trips or did things together. Everyone did their own thing. You felt that you were a part of group of you could be more independent, tougher, stronger, meaner, just like the boys. To her, being more independent makes her feel closer. My coming to accept the fact that the kids and I would have to take trips on our own and miss out on her creating those memories was a very hard thing for me to do. I felt guilty, I turned down some trips, and when we did go somewhere, it has been small trips, usually to visit my parents. But I have learned that I can go with my kids and have a good time without her. It is not as fulfilling as I wish it could be, but I have come to accept it. So just what is it you want to call me out on?
