Earlier in this thread you mention that your wife told you "I know I haven't been a very good wife to you. If I live through this, I promise to be better."
Did you ever follow up on this comment, not about what she is doing to do to be better (though you need to keep that in front of her too), but what she recognizes as her shortcomings as a wife? This kind of comment is a gift. You need to jump all over it.
Back on your description of your church and your wife getting upset with you because you put your arm around her waist, I am thinking that maybe she really wasn’t mad because of that, but it made a good excuse to retaliate against you without having to admit to her hurt feelings. She hid behind the feminist defense of women respect needing respect from men, when I wonder if she was really upset that you were GAL without her? Possibly she was feeling left out and hurt because you were making friends and she had a feeling of losing you.
Her reaction sounds so much like my wife. Rather than show her hurt feelings, she gets mad at me because I caused her to feel a sense of abandonment. Sick, I know, but maybe your wife is doing the same? Do you think there is a connection here? Is there a pattern?
I recall you thinking at one time that your wife could be a narcissist. I was postulating the same about my wife at the time. What I have come to learn is that while my wife does seem to act like a narcissist, it is because of her ultra-strong defense system and natural tendency to fight rather than cry. This prevents her from admitting to any feelings of being hurt. She instinctively turns it around on the other person.
For instance, a few weeks ago we were having sex and things were actually going pretty well. She was being self conscious about her body and I told her I would mind paying for her to get a tummy tuck (she has often said she wanted to do this), but I would like her to have a boob job, and I thought by the way she acted when she was pregnant that she would like it too.
Well a chill has settled since that time. Last weekend we had a talk/argument. I was complaining about how she was getting nasty with the kids, not being involved around the house, withdrawing into her shell and focusing on her work, and not being an involved wife. Eventually my boob comments came up.
She got all indignant that I was so insensitive, what kind of thing was that to say, it was disrespectful to women, what type of message would that send to my daughters, etc. After going round a while, I told her that she needed to stop lying to herself and to me about this matter. What she was really mad about is that she had felt close to me and I had said something to hurt her feelings. Rather than admit to this, she decided to attack me in order to avoid her feelings of vulnerability. She did listen to ne and the message seemed to sink in.
Hairdog, this is exactly what is going on in your marriage too. You need to confront your wife on these core, bottom line feelings, and not let her distract you with her BS deflections about respecting women, blah, blah, blah...
I also told my wife that because she has theses hurt feelings she pulls back into her cave and avoids the marriage. But what she really wants is for me to pull her out to prove to her that I care. That makes her have to confront her emotions, which is scary, so she goes back into her cave. What she really wants is for me to pull even harder to get her out, just to test me and prove for sure that I really care for her. The harder I have to pull, the more assured she feels, but to maintain this “chase” she needs to keep holding up inside her shell. I told her this very thing, and it too seemed to sink in.
I also mentioned that her concerns over S9 and his anger can be easily cured if she would just think of him and his outbursts the same way she thinks of her mentality retarded students when they get upset. In class she goes into problem solving mode, trying to figure out what they are reacting to and approaching them with a sense of compassion and empathy. I told her that if she can put herself in the other person’s shoes a lot of the issues with S9 and with our marriage can be cured. I would also try to do the same for her.
Right after this she left to take the kids to the store for errands, but a few hours alter we talked on the phone and she was in a good mood, and has stayed in a good mood since then. Radical, honest, to-the-point truth can and does make an impact.
I still believe that this type of reaction system used by your wife and mine can only be formed under severe traumatic conditions. Do I recall that your wife has some of these FOO issues but doesn’t want to discuss them (or am I thinking of someone else?) At some point, if you are to ever get your marriage back on track, the two of you are going to have to slay her dragons. You will have to step up as the white knight and lead the charge, dragging her along in her shell, kicking and screaming all the way.
You know Cobra, if my H said that to me, that he thought I needed a boob job, I would feel attacked, not because of being hypersensitive, but because it is an attacking comment. You seem to do the very thing to her that you say she does to you. And it may come from FOO reasons ( having anger towards your mother). Just pointing out to you that when you see a behavior in your wife, it may help to ask yourself in what way am I doing the same thing.
I agree with you. But that’s not what I said. I said I would like her to have a boob job. When she went off on me I told I would also like to have a wife with a tight ass too. Maybe I would like a blond, or someone with really long legs, whatever…. Yep, she did just as you are doing and pulled it right into HER FOO, not mine.
When I asked why she was upset over it she said is was because of the implied subjection of women, of controlling and dominating them, etc. I told her my statement had nothing to do with that, which it doesn’t. All I did was to say what I would like. SHE took it personally, just as you are doing. She even realized that she was reacting to her own FOO issues.
That was also my opening to uncover the fact that she was really reacting to her own hurt feelings, and the principle of feminism was really not the core issues, just a deflection. She was mad at herself because she allowed herself to be vulnerable and I hurt her feelings. But she did not want to admit to that, which is a major issue in our marriage. So I make NO apologies for that statement. It did a WORLD of good.
Mojo has also debated this subject quite a bit – whether one should be honest with your own wants, whether to express those wants, whether to worry how the spouse responds to those wants, whether the spouse should actually respond and how to respond when the spouse ignores you. No difference here. As Mojo came to realize (and I believe all your ladies supported her), there is nothing wrong in being honest and expressing what you want. It is up to the other person whether to meet those wants or not. Then you can decide whether the have hurt feelings or not.
IHJ, your reaction is just what I expected. It is true to the feminist way of thinking. IMO it is also hypocritical and a subverted way of trying to turn the guilt table around on the man. Dr. Laura speaks directly to this matter. Maybe you should pick up her book.
Well, I still say it was attacking! And I have the Dr. Laura book. I even have her new one on marriage, but haven't gotten to it as yet. And I cooked H and the kids ( well one kid, the other one is a picky eater) a really nice dinner tonite.
All I know is that I have some major walls to break through and I consider these types of tactics completely fair game for saving the marriage. I know too well the consequence of not breaking through. I also think this situation served as a good example of what I have been saying - if you can touch the wounded inner child, the person will respond. Feeling that true sense of caring from a spouse can add more points to the love bank than anything else, even if you have to resort to things that might otherwise create massive LB withdrawals. Touching the soul in this way can erase all the negatives that occurred before. I know it works. It is not easy but it works.
I do get what you are talking about because I have the same issue with my H...he is unable to directly express when he is feeling needy. He has to create some provocative drama and toss his emotions onto me. In the past we would never get anywhere because I would become upset and pull away, not recognizing his cry for intimacy. Now I get it, and I am able to give more in the moment, but what's missing still is getting H to recognize and verbalize the feelings underneath.
I would not have reacted as your W did to the boob comment. The feminist defense would not have occurred to me ( your W and Mrs. HD have this down, though). Instead, I would personalize it as an attack on my self esteem and get all sad. I have the hurt little girl knee-jerk response, til I get a grip and become mature IHJ.
Glad you are making progress...and sorry for the diversion, HD.
Quote: She hid behind the feminist defense of women respect needing respect from men, when I wonder if she was really upset that you were GAL without her? Possibly she was feeling left out and hurt because you were making friends and she had a feeling of losing you.
I think there is some truth to this. Somewhat similar is the way she kind of gets loving and touchy/feely when I basically show no interest in her. Kind of like someone's description recently of how to get a cat to come and play with you. Try to pet it, and it will run away. Ignore it, (GAL) and it starts purring and doing figure eights around your feet. And, start playing with another cat, and it just might scratch and hiss.
And no, I haven't followed up on the "better wife" comment. Seriously, I predict she will minimize it as the ravings of a lunatic, and attack me for trying to hold her to it. Oh sure, it might come out, but thinking I could discuss this with her in a calm manner is fantasy.
