Still on the journey 2

[optimist2004]

Nicola-
I think what mermaid said about grieving the loss of your M is right on.

Even if your H was to get his act together and commit to an R with you, it would not be the same M. Unless, you wanted the same M. But you have said you do not. You never had the M you wanted.

So you need to give yourself permission to grieve the loss of your M, because it is gone. After that you may need to also grieve the death of your dreams of a happy M with your H.

I think giving yourself time to grieve is key to your sitch right now. After a while, if you can come to a place where you can honestly give both yourself and your H permission to move on, you might find amazing relief in all of this.

[neli]

Nicola.. I had to look you up and see how things are going. you posts are so honest and so passionate. Wow..

The part about living under the ax, being the 'just in case', the type of a marriage you had. It all so reminds me of what I feel.

About once a month I think about getting the D papers going. And then the few days after that my life just starts spinning. It is like someone is telling me you are not to take control yet. So I look at all the good things in my life, put the breaks on the D papers, and my life goes back to being good.

I feel we both will know when the time has come. It will feel right. It may be too soon. Even though you have been separated longer, I feel we have lived the same life in many ways.

Do what works for you and your happiness. What is it that triggers the sad times, the disapointments? Just be you... still..

Neli

[amd]

The only thing I can say in addition to all of this is: I don't think you should stop hoping for a reconciliation in terms of that being a goal.

Stop hoping in terms of wishing it were so and expecting it to happen, but don't stop working towards it.

I'm trying to get at the difference between just wishing and not doing anything about it and doing the work. You've definitely done the work, Nicola. He isn't there yet because he hasn't worked like you have--and he can't as long as he in the MLC storm.

As long as the door hasn't closed for you, keep working on yourself and your life and your R with your kids, and yes, your R with your H. Annie's post is so beautiful and right on, and I think she's right that you'll know when the door closes for you, but as long as it's open, keep fighting the good fight. Keep living in the present as much as possible. Do it for you, not for him or anyone else.

I hope all of that makes sense.

Be well.

[Bworl]

Nicola,

There is something in the fiber of my being that tells me that my wife and I were put together for a reason. That same something tells me that my God never intended for this pairing to be divided. I know that my wife once felt this way too, though clearly she has changed her feelings about that. Not surprising really, since so many of her other feelings have changed as well.

I'm not sure I'm a good one to be writing about standing, because over the last few weeks I've been thinking long and hard about why I'm standing and how long I will be standing. I've considered the possibility that God might know that things with my wife will never change, and maybe He would like me to move on at some point and find what is next for me. I know that at my age I expect to love again and know the oneness of being committed to another again. How I wish it could be my wife once more.

What marriage is great all the time? I think it was Michelle in the DB book who said, if someone had told you on the day you were wed that your marriage would only last X years before you would no longer want to be together, you would have called them nuts. We all began this expecting it to last forever, even more for it to be good forever. Something got lost along the way. But I really doubt that they are lost forever.

By going through this time in our lives, I think each of us has created a picture in our minds of what a good marriage and a good relationship with our spouse should look like. We seem to learn more and more every day as we try to deal with these changes in our lives. These good relationships that we picture don't just happen, they must be nurtured and developed. I'd like to think that most of us stand, even when we know our marriages pre-bomb were not perfect, because we do love our spouses, we do take our commitment seriously, and most of all because we all believe that given a second chance we are all now equipped to make our marriages so much better than they were before.

How long do we stand? Gee, that's kind of personal and unique to each of us and where we are in our own journeys right now, isn't it? A month ago I would have told you that I would be standing for my marriage for the rest of my life, even if my wife remarried one day. Today I don't believe that is true.

Time goes by, we grow and change, we accept what life has brought our way and through it all we find a way to embrace whatever it is that the future holds for us. If you are walking by faith, you continually give the path of your life up to God and ask Him constantly for guidance and direction. But you know what? In the end we each do the best we can to make sense of what we see in front of us. No one can presume to speak for God, and no one can presume to tell us what we SHOULD do. That's a part of our personal journey.

Rick Warren says that life is a test, a trust, and temporary. As a test, every incident in our life is an opportunity to grow, to become better than we were before. As a trust, we realize that we have been given much by our Creator and are called to both protect and nurture what we've been given. And finally we are reminded that life is temporary. There is no reason to spend this precious time caught up in things that don't bring us closer to our ultimate goal.

To stand or not to stand. Hell, that's not really even the question. To live or not to live. That's the REAL question.

Blessings,

Bill

[almosthopeless]

Oh nicola,

You've received some wonderful comments and observations here. Like BBA, I've never been in the "choice" situation. That said, I think she and mermaid particularly have hit on two important things. First, until you feel for sure it is time to do something else, just keep still and keep working on you. Second, this time is so well spent grieving that first M. No matter what happens in the future, that M is over, and must be grieved for you to come out healthy.

Big hugs.
AH

[always_14]

Loved what everyone wrote, esp. my gal Annie.

I understand your frustration. I used to feel it often, and now less and less each day. The "ugh, when will this ever end...and if it does, look what a mess it will still be..." But, it's our expectation that the "end" of that comes in a piece of paper, and come about by our H's.

It does not. That was a POWERFUL thing for me to realize. You can end this. Meaning end the torture, the suffering, the waiting, the agonizing. You can do that without a D. You can do that without H. You just get up, walk away and live again.

Sounds so simple, but, when I tried it, it really was. But, I had to come to that space on my own. It still aggravates me, but now, I really do live and feel life without H. I try not to wonder "what if, when" because I don't know and each time I think I know, it's wrong and a lot longer. Also, I hope that when it is over for ME, I will know it in my heart.

You're right sweetie, You can't wait forever. No one is asking you to. You are not in limbo. You are living. Do what you feel it takes to get you to feel that again. If that means boundaries, no contact, pulling back, whatever. Now is the time to save yourself, not H. That will come at it's own time.

You ALWAYS have a choice about your life.

[lovingme]

Wow Nic ~ Not much else I can add after all of this. I like you didn't have the "perfect" marriage. Yeah we had some good times but we had plenty of bad times too. You have been standing longer than I have and you follow my thread so you know where I am at right now.

I feel like I am done standing for a marriage that wasn't that great. Maybe h is right, maybe we both deserve more. I hate to "give up". I don't want to fail. I want to hold it together for my kids. I know h and I could be happy together but I can't force him to be with me. Every situation is different though so you need to take in the advice you are given but use what is right for you and your situation.

No one ever said life was easy huh?!

Hugs sweetie!!!

[bj]

hey guys
see I do still keep an eye on you all
lovingdme (just can't get used to that name will have to stick with LH) you just made me think
you said

I hate to "give up". I don't want to fail.

that got me to thinking
give up - fail
what if we are supposed to recognise that something is not working - that it doesn't work for either party and makes two people miserable

these days I am thinking that most things that happen do for a reason - and the key is for us to work out what that reason is
did we get together with someone because the children we had were meant to be born into this world
but were we when meant to realise the relationship wasn't working and do something about it - and by that I don't necessarily mean 'fix it' I mean more like 'leave it and remain friendly'
I don't believe in determinism I don't believe for a minute that our lives are planned and have a particular path that we are meant to follow
if that was the case we may as well stay in bed as what will be will be with or without our input
we have choices and sometimes we don't always make the right ones - we make the emotional ones
if we have buy a car and its a lemon we get rid of it
if we have a job that sux we get another one
if something in our life isn't working we try something else
we try to stick with what works and build on that

why then do we 'flog a dead horse' when it comes to trying to re-establish a relationship that wasn't that great to begin with
is it because we think it is a reflection on us and our ability to hold something together while it crumbles around us and makes us feel bad and makes everyone around us feel bad

sure we all go into relationships with high hopes and believe it is worth fighting for but why do we continue when it doesn't work and it makes us miserable

why do we hang on for grim death to someone who says they want to move on without us and treats us badly
anyone else we know if they did the same types of things we would walk away because we deserve more
why do we equate a breakdown in relationship between two human beings as a failure on the part of ourselves?

gosh I think I am now 'thought out' and need to go for coffee

Nicola - I am still impressed by your ability to continue to analyse your situation
LH - you just blow me away with the 'new' you

bj

[ACJ]

Some posters here (Althea, Alison, Angelica--all A's!) had wonderful marriages, the kind many of us dream of.

Nicola the fact that you mentioned me in this quote made me sit up! I actually don't have the same perception of my M as you have gleamed from my posts! Isn't that interesting? Yes my H was a very good father and has actually done the opposite to your H (which believe me is soul destroying) but he was a good father at the expense of being a good H. I was always jealous of the R my H had with my kids especially D16. There have even been incidences where we were all supposed to go out as a family, she kicked off, I got riled and refused to go and so he left me and the other 2 at home and still took her! I recognise now that this was probably the very beginning of MLC for H but I'm sure I don't have to tell you how that felt. The fact that my mum was staying with at the time (who was equally horrified) is just another side to the story.
Yes I loved (and still love) my H with all my heart and I do believe at some point he loved me BUT I don't think he ever loved me in the way I wanted/needed to be loved. My parents were my role model for a good marriage. Despite the fact that my mum likes a good arguement they never ever put either me or my brother before their own R. I expected this to happen in my M and it NEVER happened. I'm not saying my H was a bad H but he didn't have the same ideals about M that I had. So whilst on the outside it may have been a very happy M (and i have obviously done a good job at portraying it as that) on the inside there were lots of cracks. One of those cracks developed into MLC and here I am sitting on the curb with all of you wonderful people.

I've also had the thoughts that you've had recently. I know why I have not started the D myslef and that is that I do not want to be responsible for potentially making the biggest mistake of mine and Hs lives. I know I could forgive H that but I could never forgive myself!

Its' been a week since I heard from H and the temptation to call him is so very strong but I know it will only set him off on another course of destruction so I am leaving him well alone. I think you need to try and detach again Nicola (although harder when your H is finally coming up to the mark as a dad). You were in a much better place when you were able to do this.

Email me any time you like if you want to share more.

[princess_nic]

Dear Friends,

Thank you all so much. Many of you brought up similar points, and I will address them all as best I can.

First of all, BA - thank you for that thoughtful, insightful post. I was doing a good job of detaching from the outcome, but I'm backsliding again. I have a hard time with letting go of my hope for reconciliation, and I will get into why a bit later. However, my faith is taking a beating, and I'm finding it hard to believe that God has something better in store for me. I'm actually having a hard time believing in God at all, to tell you the truth. I do agree that it is what I need right now.

When your heart is ready to close the door on any possibility of your taking him back into your life, regardless, you will feel that door close. You won't have to make an affirmative decision about that. It will just close.

Thank you for this. Sometimes, I feel that it has closed, that I just want to get this whole thing over with and put this marriage behind me. But that is usually when I am filled with anger and disappointment, so I'm not sure it's a good decision. That's not to say that I won't ever feel ready to do that, but I don't think it should be an emotional decision. Anyway, thank you--this was a big help.

COG ~ I hope that you didn't think I was referring to you as being prideful. I know that you continue to stand for very good reasons. As you well know, my situation is much different because I am not getting any fulfillment from my R with H. I also took my vows very seriously, but I can't imagine that God wants this for me. I wonder about the remarriage thing-I haven't talked to my pastor, but I will do that. Either way, if God leads me to someone else, it wouldn't be wrong, would it? I'm tired of living a "good" live, though. I'm tired of doing what I feel I "should" do. I just want to live for myself (hmmmph!). Maybe the world is right. Maybe I'm just being too responsible and overly committed. I don't know anymore. Who really knows what God thinks?

Re. the kids: H did always say that he thought he'd be a better father when they got older and he could relate to them, but he was uninvolved to the point of complete emotional (and often physical) unavailability. The kids would literally be shouting his name, begging for attention, and he would ignore them. Still, the R they have now is good for them, so I am really trying hard to focus on that. The 9 years he didn't act like a father are water under the bridge; it makes me angry and resentful, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Mermaid ~ It certainly does seem that we had similar marriages:

We never had a great m. I beleive my h has passive aggressive personality traits and has been depressed for as long as I have known him. I too stand because of my children and because I know if h can defeat that demon he would be the kind of h he should be and we would have the kind of m we should have.

This is exactly my feeling. It seems like we were/are married to the same man! Yes, IF he would change, we COULD be happy. But that is a big "if." My H is in therapy, but his T told me it would take at least 3 years of hard work for him to be healthy. Three years! And even then, it's not guaranteed.

Mermaid and Opti both mentioned grieving the lost marriage, and that is where I think I am at. I think that is why I'm having this backslide. I have finally accepted that my M was really not good. It wasn't what I wanted it to be, and all those things I ignored b/c I didn't want to know didn't disappear. I am sad, angry, resentful. Things COULD have been so much better...but they weren't. I wish I could go back and change some of my behaviours. But even if I did, H would still be H, and he would still have the same issues he has now. Yes, this is a time of grieving and mourning, and I guess it's time to stop beating myself up for that. I am mad at myself for caring, for not just "moving on." I had detached quite well, but I suppose it is normal that it is not a smooth road to acceptance. Right now, it is pretty bumpy.

BJ - you are right that we attach more of our self-worth to a "failed" R than a "failed" car or job choice. I suppose that's b/c the "failure" is at least in part due to us, and everybody knows that. I like your idea that maybe there's just a time to say good-bye.

Here are my issues/problems that remain unresolved:

(a) I believe in the vows that I made and I feel enormous guilt over breaking them, if I were to D;

(b) I have been reading a lot about positive thinking, "what you think about you bring about," and I'm afraid that if I DON'T focus on reconciliation it won't happen; that if I focus on being happy alone, that's what will happen;

(c) We are still very much attached b/c of kids and finances. In order to split our assets, we would have to have a legal S. Plus, he still gets mail and some phone calls here. I'm not sure what to do about this;

(d) I hate to be the one to break up the family by filing, but knowing H, it might never happen if left up to him. He is such a procrastinator and likes to leave his options open. Then again, he actually broke up the family when he chose to go outside of our M with ow.

Okay, I'm tired now! I know I didn't get to everybody, but you all helped me a lot. I hope this answers some of your questions and concerns.

Love,
Nicola