I wonder if y'all made a suicide pact and you backed out of it if she would feel abandoned.
Abandonment is a huge issue for her. When we were first married she was always afraid I'd leave. You'll remember that note from October, too: "Please don't give up on me; please don't leave me." Her mom would deliberately withhold affection from her when she was displeased with her. My wife would be standing there begging her mom to look at her and talk to her, and she wouldn't. My wife recently confronted her about this. (Actually in the same conversation where she told her we were separating.) My wife has accused me of withholding affection from her in the same way her mom did, but I told her truthfully that I've never withheld affection in order to punish her.
She is a child of divorce?
She was 30 years old, but it still devastated her. Her father had an affair with a married woman. My wife felt like he'd been a huge hypocrit, that he had betrayed her mom. And my wife still makes comments about how their divorce has upset her own life ... her mom not being able to be as involved of a grandmother because she's had to go back to work.
That's interesting. So all the while your religious culture was pressuring you two to walk the straight and narrow, and telling you that divorce was not an option, her parents-- hypocritically-- broke the rules???
The sect we were apart of dissolved shortly after we were married. Within a few years a number of high profile couples divorced.
When you say that the younger siblings "are really upset about this"-- upset about you and W's separation, or about their parents' divorce?
Both. I think our separation has resurfaced some of the pain of their parents' divorce.
Are the parents much happier with their lives now? If they are, then your W does have a basis for believing her life will improve after D.
Her father is generally unhappy... but it's hard to know how happy he was in the marriage. He certainly has a much worse relationship with his children. His oldest son will hardly speak to him.
Her mother is happier than the few years preceeding the divorce, but much less happy than she was when my wife was growing up.
Before he was found out, for two or three years, my FIL was really mean to his wife and the two kids at home. When he was found out, he refused to give up the other woman, asking his wife to accept an open marriage.
That was over the top and uncalled for. Very sorry.
No offense taken. This is a really screwed up situation, with love, anger, and hurt squeezing us to death. I appreciate you helping me unravel it.
your fear is not so much that SHE will go to a lawyer and serve papers on you, as it is that she will persuade YOU to do it.
I think you might be right. I fear sitting in a room with her again while she and I blame me for her pain, she reminds me of why she wants a divorce, curses me for making her say over and over that she wants a divorce, tells me again that she doesn't want to hurt me, etc. Then she gets enraged again and tells me that she knew I would make her the bad guy, and she didn't think she'd have to go through this alone, but she's getting stronger and stronger, and she will do it if she has to.
Does that make sense? You're afraid that you will cave in and do what she wants against your will and against your better judgment-- is that it?
It's also the questioning of whether I'm "right" not to consentually divorce her. She sees me as a man that she "has to ask for sex." To her, that's abnormal. And remember, after the way she was raised, she really wants to be normal. She's always wanted to be normal, accepted by "regular" people. So when she levels this and other sex-related charges at me, my knees buckle. I think "I am abnormal. I should let her go."
1) she is angry at you and wants a divorce 2) she wants YOU to agree to a D and set it in motion 3) you're afraid you might give in and do it 4) SO SHE WON'T BE ANGRY WITH YOU
YES!
Because she has made it clear she won't D unless you do it.
She's made it clear that I am inflicting further pain on her and abandoning her if I don't go along with it.
And, as has already been suggested here (and you've figured out, too), your fear of HER anger is really your fear of YOUR anger... so, theoretically, if you spend some time "getting in touch with" your anger, that should release some of the pressure... and you can do this on your own, in a journal, or do it here.
Yeah. It's crazy but true. My anger, and what will happen if it gets out of control, may be what I fear the most.
Quote: She's made it clear that I am inflicting further pain on her and abandoning her if I don't go along with it [the divorce].
And yet if you divorce her, you're also abandoning her.
Quote: It's also the questioning of whether I'm "right" not to consentually divorce her.
I don't think you would be wrong to divorce her if she initiated it. I also don't think you HAVE to go along with it if she initiated it. The key here is YOUR doing what YOU want and HER doing what SHE wants. What's happening here is SHE says she wants it, but she wants YOU to do it.
I think you should do/not do what you want.
It would be interesting if you said something like (again not suggesting you do this... just brainstorming):
"I do not think divorce is morally wrong. I know we were raised to believe that it was not an option, but we were taught incorrectly. Now that I am a grown man, I believe divorce can be the correct option for some couples. Divorce is certainly an option for us, as it is for every married or partnered couple.
"If one person wants a divorce, that does not make him or her the 'bad guy.'
"However, *I* do not want a divorce. I want to save our marriage and be happy. If you do not want to save our marriage and do not believe that we can be happy together, and you are very clear that you want a divorce, I will go along with that decision, but I will not make it happen. You will have to initiate and follow through. I will sign on the dotted line, but I will not lift one finger up until that point-- not because I believe divorce is wrong, but because I want to go on being married to you. And if you do carry it out, that does not make you the 'bad guy'; that just makes you a woman going after what she wants. I will respect that."
Anyway...
Now that you've said something about her mom and her parents' sitch, I believe that is the root of her anger: the way her mom treated her, her parents' divorce after she was an adult, the betrayal of the religious/morality beliefs y'all had shoved down your throats-- ALL of it. I don't blame her for being mad! And I think she sees you as being part of all of that, and you've become the scapegoat.
I definitely get the wanting to be normal. That's also been the driving force in my life. When my bf didn't want to have sex (and we had sex about three times in 2006-- he also is afflicted with ED from physical and emotional causes... but NOT because I ever criticized him or ridiculed him about it)... the worst part of it for me was not feeling normal. It wasn't even so much about my sex drive or about expressing love, as it was about "normal" people were having sex and I wasn't so I must not be normal.
And in the case of her father's affair... it's pretty demoralizing when your parent is getting it and you're not...and when it's a high enough priority to your parent to break up a marriage over it! "My dad has a high enough sex drive to want to divorce my mom, and I can't get my husband into bed!" Yikes! That would make one feel like a loser even while you may be disgusted with and furious at said parent.
Re her parents divorcing when she was an adult: I hope all the people reading this board who are waiting until the kids are older to D will take this to heart. There's a book on this subject (naturally ) called "A Grief Out of Season: When Your Parents Divorce in Your Adult Years"*, and it's about the devastating effect of a divorce on GROWN children. The anger and bitterness in this book match your wife's. Not all grown children have this reaction; but clearly your W is one of them. These children feel that their childhood has been invalidated; that all the "happiness" they thought they were having was a fraud, a sham. They feel that their childhood has been stolen and trashed. At least when you divorce when the children are younger, they still have a chance at some authentic happy childhood memories. Even a divorce is not likely to completely shatter a young-ish child's idealization of a parent. But when that betrayal happens to a "child" in their 20's or older-- it can destroy the parent-child relationship. This happened to my late H. He divorced when his youngest (of 3) was in college. She never forgave him and rarely spoke to him during the remaining 13 years of his life. She had to be dragged to his ICU room when he was dying and also had to be dragged to his funeral. After the funeral she had a complete emotional breakdown. The estrangement was the biggest thorn in his side and caused him pain to the end. This is NOT an unusual situation.
Re your W's mom's crappy behavior toward her: Diane Rehm, the lovely NPR morning show hostess, in her autobiography, "Finding My Voice," tells a similar story about her mother. When she was a child, if her mom got mad at her, her mom would not speak to her. This was when Diane was a little girl, maybe 8 or so. Once her mother didn't speak to or look at her for three weeks! The title of the book is ironic, not only because Diane is now in radio (and one of the finest interviewers anywhere) but she suffers from spasmodic dysphonia, a condition that causes her to lose her voice periodically. If you've heard her on the radio, you know that she sounds like a very elderly woman, when she is in fact, in her late 60's (I think) and stunningly beautiful.
Anyway, if anyone needs real therapy to deal with her competely legitimate feelings of anger and betrayal at her parents and her church, it's your wife.
Rig, you are a very good sport to let this stranger poke around in your brain and give you free advice. I'm grateful to you for continuing to engage in this dialogue with me. Thank you.
Curious: what kind of work do you do? Just in general-- what industry? Do you work with people in a "team" arrangement, or do you mostly work on your own?
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*Comments on the book from the amazon site:
Quote: From Publishers Weekly
The stress of divorces among older couples on their adult children is distinctly different from and more severe than that experienced by younger offspring of divorcing parents, contend freelance writer Fintushel (whose parents were divorced when she was 22) and family therapist Hillard. In this enlightening, well-organized book, the authors claim that when "mature" couples divorce, as they are doing in increasing numbers, they often depend on their children to help them adjust to their new lives, thereby dividing the offsprings' loyalties and threatening their independence. Hillard and Fintushel offer strategies for overcoming feelings of betrayal, guilt and alienation, which in some cases are aggravated by a parent's remarriage. They also strongly recommend professional guidance to aid in healing and reweaving family bonds.
From Kirkus Reviews
A look at the trauma suffered by--and the possible courses of action open to--those whose parents divorce after their children are old enough to vote. It may be lacking in compassion to question the need for a self-help book addressed to the adult offspring of parents who divorce at retirement age. (So prevalent are these midlife breakups now that there is even a term for it, ``gray divorce.'') True, American adolescence is prolonged. But is it legitimate to demand that parents stay together for the sake of the kids when the kids are nearing 30? With that question in mind, this is a pretty good book of its kind. The authors (Fintushel: a free-lance writer; Hillard: a clinical psychologist) address the questions of the pain caused when the familiar patterns of relationships are broken, when family myths are exploded, and when friends ask, ``Why are you so upset? You're grown-up.'' Fintushel's parents divorced when she was 22, and there is an evocative recounting of how her ideal family ``blew up in my face.'' Interviews with other adult offspring of late divorces substantiate the importance of the familial fantasy in shaping lives and character. Hillard contributes advice on dealing with the new relationships that must be formed after such a split, how to avoid destructive patterns in your own marriage, and even how to plan holidays. The wrap-up is that with time and effort, the new lives can be liberating for both parents and grown-up children. The question remains whether grown-up children should be waiting for a parental divorce to launch them on the path to liberation.
I maybe can give you some insite into how a woman feels who has been rejected sexually. I will also add that my husband is now going through ED troubles right now. I was and am so hurt and angry. I feel stuck. I feel helpless. I feel like I am missing out on so much. I get envious of other couples who appear to be normal. I feel rejected and so unattractive. The anger part comes from, I think, that I would love to get thrown up on a bed and screwed hard by a man that desired me. But the anger comes in because I know that is morally wrong because I am married. Hence the feeling of being stuck and the anger comes in. I think the fact that your wife is still angry is a good sign that hopefully she isn't having an affair. She may still be struggling that IT IS morally wrong because she is still married. But the dangerous part for you is because she is seperated. Which may make it easier by the day for her to follow through with if a man starts paying her attention.
I think a good thing to do would be to show her the sexual side of you. Let her know how hungry you feel for her. Be honest with her and talk to her about your ED. Tell her exactly how it makes you feel. Men make the mistake of hiding this. I can understand the embarrassment. But it does no good to hide it. The one good thing that has happened in my marriage is that he has started to open up about it. He went to the doctor and has a precription for viagra if he needs it. The one thing I HAD to do with advice I got on here is to support him. I had to make the first move and talk to him about it. But he has opened up and told me how this makes him feel as a man. I am understanding more. But boy how I had wished he would open up to me. To make sure I knew it wasn't me. The other night he popped a viagra and stood up with this raging hard on and asked me if I wanted to go to the bedroom. It really took me by surprise. He wanted to try out the viagra. But I felt so good about myself, about us, and about his desire for me. Because he didn't have to pop that pill unless he had wanted to. He has also initiated without the use of medicine. But I told him that I loved him and found him sexy no matter what. That I understood and he didn't have to feel nervous about doing anything with me. That I understood and didn't think less of him at all. I think you can get to this place also. But you can't get there by avoiding this problem. Also if you were masturbating and not paying your wife attention it only adds to the mind games going on in her head. It only adds more to her anger. I would send e-mails or leave messages that are maybe sexual. Ler her see that side of you. If you think she looked hot one day when you seen her let her know. If you think a sexual thought about her tell her. If you want to work on things be honest and tell her. If you don't wish to divorce be down right honest with her and tell her you will fight her on it. Maybe she is pushing you hard right now because she wants to see a strong man.
Thank you very much for writing, Try, and Happy New Year to everyone
It's interesting to hear your take on anger coming from the injustice of being trapped between not getting what you need and not being able to get it without going against your morals. I can definitely see some of that coming from my wife. She does have a very strong moral center, though she's been riding the edges for a while.
You are not the first to suggest showing my sexual side, leaving suggestive messages, etc. The crazy thing is that she's trying really hard to move on. She gets "mad" (I'm not sure if it's real or not) if I do anything that suggests we have a relationship.
But, I've got to say, if she were to consider getting back together, she would really need to feel more confidence in our potential sex life. And that has as much to do with attraction and showing desire as in being able to go through with the physical act.
So I'm considering pushing in this direction again, as long as I can keep strong in the midst of it ... when I allow myself to feel the attraction, I tend to get sucked into feeling desperate, and that's bad. Gotta get more comfortable being a sexual man, I guess.
Oh, and here's a thought that's been haunting me the last couple of days.
The wives of LD husbands here have mentioned how this BB has helped them. Well, my wife doesn't have the support of other women in her situation. One of her complaints when we were in counseling diagnostics was that all the information she'd seen so far was from men. She wanted to see what women had to say. (Actually, then the therapist gave her a list of books by women...I don't know if she ever read any of them.)
But my point is, her peer group is full of women married to HD husbands. And, she is not looking to work on this marriage. At least our friends are uniformly in favor of us working things out. Given that, it does seem that I really (man, I've said this before) need to show her a man that could meet her needs.
So, it's nearly 2am. I've been to a party (with my kids) with one half of our friends ... and I think she probably went to a party with the other half of our friends. Last New Year's Eve I watched her and my SIL get wasted beyond belief. I tried to play the supportive husband and just keep her out of trouble. But truthfully I felt very alone, like I have at most events over the last couple of years, like she was pushing me away, trying to reclaim her lost youth.
I was happy to not be in that role tonight. Happy not to have to worry about her being too drunk in front of the kids, and happy not to feel the rejection of being with a woman who seemed to think I was a stick in the mud.
But I was sad when I remembered the good times, and when I saw other couples and thought how things could have been, could be with us.
I had a brief talk with one of our female friends, a great person, who pressed me for details, and finally got out of me that my wife wants a divorce and I don't. She echoed the feeling that most of my wife's friends have that they just hope she'll snap out of this. I, of course, didn't tell her about our sex issues, but I did find myself, once again, sticking up for my wife to a certain degree, saying that she had valid issues with me, and that we were both responsible for where our relationship was.
Crazy as it may seem, at this point I just feel like taking out an ad in the paper to get it over with. "Rigley has always had trouble keeping it up." I almost wonder if making that public information would take some of the pressure off of her.
No, I'm not going to do anything close to that. I'll just keep trying to avoid looking like the "good one."
As far as talking in more depth about my sex issues with my wife, the time just doesn't feel right. She doesn't really care about me right now. She's written me off. She doesn't want any excuses or explanations. She's too mad.
But what woman doesn't want to know a man's got the hots for her ... as long as he doesn't make her feel unsafe?
Well, my wife doesn't have the support of other women in her situation. One of her complaints when we were in counseling diagnostics was that all the information she'd seen so far was from men. She wanted to see what women had to say..
Why not copy and paste posts you find here to a word processor file and print it out for your W's benefit.
Find articles about W's that feel like your W does and that have lower drive H.
Tryingtoholdon's last post could be included and you could say you learned something from her posts that would help you to understand your W's feelings a little more.
Of course your W might say it is all BS and not want to hear anything now. You are in the R and I am not but I think it might give her some understanding to see what other women want that want their man to be more involved in the marital relationship more than they are because of different sex drives.
I’d also like to compliment you on how open you have been to taking in advice and how much you have learned in such a short period of time. But that very fact bothers me a little. This comment might be out of place, but again, it is meant in good faith.
I believe that the changing of a person’s way of emotionally reacting is a very difficult thing to do. Emotions are deep seated and slow to change. Your understanding has moved forward very quickly, but I wonder if part of that is just another side of your wish to be accepted and not offend others. In this case, it has worked for your good. But your bigger goal is to be more assertive, self assured, and in some ways, unassailable in your beliefs. You seem very open to overturning your previous views of marriage, women and yourself.
Again, this is great for the learning you need to go through. But once you feel you have a good understanding and have been able to make these ideas a part of your being and your reactions, think about firming up your convictions (or at least the appearance of them to your wife) so she can see you as the rock, not a leaf blowing in the wind.
I don’t mean to hijack your thread as this comment is directed at Heather (whose thread has locked), but I do see application to your sitch…
Heather,
I’ve been meaning to comment on your latest sitch… You seem to be quite committed to working out the marriage, though prepared to go through with D if necessary. But more over riding is you wish to reconcile at some point in the future, even after D. So you idea to make the best of the D, to not be enemies, to try and not place blame or fault, does sound good in theory, but I am not sure if it really helps you accomplish your goal.
One comment Nopkins made to me long ago (and to others too) was to tell my W that if we divorced I would not be friends with her. I did in fact tell my W this very thing, that I had no desire to make the D easy for her, that I would fight for everything I was entitled to and I would do my best to keep the house and through her out. And I meant every word.
When we started to get close to D, I think the reality of this started to dawn on her. She previously had the idea that D would bring an easier lifestyle, that we could be friends, that I could still come over and visit the kids, help her with any household problems if needed, just like another family a few houses down the street from us.
That family’s arrangement is insanity, IMO. That H has given his wife every incentive to D and no consequences for avoiding D. I hear that you do not want to D, but it seems you are willing to give you H all the benefits of D, plus you are willing to through in some of the amenities of marriage. Why would he not choose D? Is this the message you really want to send?
) called 
It really took me by surprise. He wanted to try out the viagra. But I felt so good about myself, about us, and about his desire for me. Because he didn't have to pop that pill unless he had wanted to. He has also initiated without the use of medicine. But I told him that I loved him and found him sexy no matter what. That I understood and he didn't have to feel nervous about doing anything with me. That I understood and didn't think less of him at all.