Quote: It has to be extremely difficult, because the times that I haven't responded to her approach have been extremely hurtful to her.
This is because she viewed your rejection as both a rejection of her physical appearance and an indication that you didn't really love her. If she is generally a physically affectionate person, it is probably the case that for her sex is the ultimate expression of love. So when you sexually rejected her it was as if you refused to give her a hug but a 1000 times worse. Therefore, if she cried when you rejected her it was probably a 50/50 mix of self-pity and real heartbreak. In her mind, it's not just that you didn't want to have sex with her, you didn't care to make love to her either. It's unfortunate that she has put the burden of proving your love on your uncooperative penis because I'm sure that it makes it harder for you to perform. However, she is not in a place right now where she'll be able to feel much empathy. I don't agree with BF that she is probably having an affair but I do agree that she is probably looking to have one. She is currently an easy mark for any sweet-talker with a hard-on. I really hope for both of your sakes that she doesn't allow herself to be "rescued" in this way. The fact that you describe her as being "fun" makes me think that she probably is a Type 7 like me and HP. When I was in the phase that she is in (unfortunately I still sink back to this level on occasion in response to lame-o behavior from my H), I became addicted to hip-hop music and started wearing low rise jeans and tight t-shirts out in public. Luckily, I also joined this BB or my marriage would have been history. If she is a Type 7, clearly you can improve your appeal by being more fun. For instance, one time I was angry at my H because he didn't show up for a sex date as promised and he said "But I did take you to see fireworks.". That worked. Type 7s are like the Roman masses sexually, just give them some bread (regular weekly RDA of sex) and circuses (make it exciting or interesting on occasion) and they'll be happy.
Quote: Fortunately I have never, not even once, made a derrogatory comment about her weight.
Don't listen to what BF has to say on this subject. You are a smart man.
Quote: What she doesn't realize is that the thing I find most attractive about her is her smile. And she gives that to me so infrequently.
It might be good to tell her this. Even though my H has blamed his LD on my appearance, he says things like this too. For instance, once when I said something similar to your wife about looking yucko in a picture, he said "You look attractive to me in that picture because you are happy.". Saying something like this to your wife won't make her want to jump your bones but it will make her less LD for being in a relationship with you.
Quote: a man is standing in front of her limp and desperate
Since this man is limp can we pretend he's someone else? And can I be standing in front of her too with a rock hard erection? Sorry, that may be too much from Friday morning.
ROTFLMAO. I think that would be your meditation, not hers. Though you could start making obscene phone calls to her along those lines. If she is truly my clone, she might pretend to be offended but actually be intrigued. A little bad boy behavior from you, given your history, might not be a bad thing. Maybe you should buy a motorcycle AND an extra helmet.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
MJ, I was royally p!ssed off at my wife this morning (over everything, not anything in particular). Hearing from you helped knock me back over to the understanding side a bit. So now I'm just p!ssed. I think that will serve me well today, given my recent track record.
Quote: MJ, I was royally p!ssed off at my wife this morning (over everything, not anything in particular). Hearing from you helped knock me back over to the understanding side a bit. So now I'm just p!ssed. I think that will serve me well today, given my recent track record.
Glad to be of help. Low level p*ssed might not be the worst state for you to act from just as long as you don't become p*ssy, subtle but important difference from the female POV. John Wayne might get p*ssed but he wouldn't get p*ssy.
Another hint I would pass along is that you shouldn't let on to your W that you miss her for her meal planning and childcare skills and other things along that line. It will potentially cause her to have thoughts like "Yeah, you miss me. You miss me like Mr.Brady would miss Alice the Maid." and a vision of an unfun life full of household chores and no sex would appear to her. OTOH, if you were to bake cookies with the kids while you had them, she would probably regret not being able to be part of the homey, family fun and be sort of admiring of your ability to create it without her. Type 7s can't stand to miss out on fun.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Rig, right now I think it's healthier for you to be pissed at your W than feel bad about how bad she feels and how you are the "cause" of it.
Re the hypothetical divorce: what steps has she actually taken to get a divorce? Has she talked to a lawyer? Has she suggested custody arrangements? I think she's pulling out the D card just to keep you off balance. I don't mean that she's not capable of it and that you should dare her to go through with it (God forbid), but it seems like every time she brings it up, you go to pieces. As I said earlier, it's been my experience that when people are ready to D, they just do it. And please, someone, comment on the phenomenon of getting your spouse to "agree" to a divorce. Is that what people do in hostile situatons? I know that there are amicable D's where people agree to split. But in sitch's like Rig's where one person wants it and the other one doesn't, isn't it usually the case that the one-who-wants just goes to a lawyer and sets things in motion?
Rig, I'm NOT suggesting you do the following... BUT I have this fantasy of the next time she pulls the D card, you say, "I don't want to hear the word divorce again unless it is immediately followed by papers served on me by your lawyer. You are not going to provoke me into initiating a divorce-- ever. If there is going to be a D, you will be the one to do it all. I will not cooperate. Period." Cheesh. Again: NOT suggesting you do this... but *I* certainly felt better writing it out!
Low level p*ssed might not be the worst state for you to act from just as long as you don't become p*ssy, subtle but important difference from the female POV
I get the difference for sure. I was not p!ssy today. I squared my shoulders, didn't mope, but I didn't do the old smile to get a smile thing.
I have been p!ssy before. It's a weak position, and it drive me nuts when I get stuck in it. But the only way I can get out of it is to really let my anger out. P!ssy is the state of being mad, but too scared to do anything other than hope the person sees you're mad.
I didn't care if she saw today or not. I did smile when appropriate though. And I did get close enough to let her feel my body heat
you shouldn't let on to your W that you miss her for her meal planning and childcare skills and other things along that line
I was waiting for someone to call me on the "poor me" aspect of that post of mine. After writing that, I realized that she was also throwing a poor me at me with the DVD player being broken remark.... and then I realized she's just as good at them as I am. I hear four from her today. Anyway, I'll avoid telling her I miss her domestic skills.
Type 7s can't stand to miss out on fun.
I don't know the types at all, and my head would probably explode if I tried to go there, but she definitely can't stand missing fun. First one at the party...last one to leave.
I brought the kids home tonight. This is only her second free night since I moved out. Makes me a little nervous Fortunately, she has to get up at 5am to get to work on time.
Rig, right now I think it's healthier for you to be pissed at your W than feel bad about how bad she feels and how you are the "cause" of it.
Yeah... I keep thinking back to that Christmas Day "discussion" and the guy I see in that scenario is pretty pathetic. I was practically laying myself down on the altar and handing her the knife. She came at me with guilt, and I one-upped her by piling my own guilt on top of it.
On the anger side, I'm starting to see that holding my anger in and trying to act like everything's OK, and being afraid of upsetting her, are the two things that really screw up the way I relate to her. They put me in a weak position, and she's learned to hate those things about me, and to exploit them.
About the divorce, I think she really thinks she wants one. She has no demands of me, so I don't think it's a real threat. On the other hand, it could be ... it really could be a subconscious attempt to get me to fix things between us...the cry for help kind of thing.
I really need to mentally disarm her of this divorce weapon. You're right, Lil, I've been letting it really get to me.
Quote: About the divorce, I think she really thinks she wants one.
I agree that she thinks she wants one. She thinks that if she gets this, it will be the first step to getting the life she wants. And right now she can't see getting the life she wants without this step.
Does she really have any idea how devastating a divorce can be, and how it truly is the last resort? I'm guessing not. And I'm guessing she doesn't want to hear about the "work" that can be done to save a marriage because that sounds too much like the religious platitudes that she feels got y'all here in the first place.
BUT has she DONE anything about getting a divorce that you are aware of? Has she actually taken any real-world steps?
Does she really have any idea how devastating a divorce can be, and how it truly is the last resort?
We have been told this since childhood. "Divorce is not an option." But I think she's convinced herself that the kids will be okay as long as we don't fight. The only divorce she's been close to where kids were involved is her parents ... and her youngest siblings were in their late teens when that happened. They, BTW, are really upset about this.
BUT has she DONE anything about getting a divorce that you are aware of? Has she actually taken any real-world steps?
She hasn't done anything at all, I don't think. Originally, I said that if we decided to divorce we'd do it together. I was still acting as the caretaker. The other day, her reaction to me saying she could file was almost like abandonment. I think part of her wants me to take care of everything. The other part of her wants to flex her independence and muscle through it.
Quote: The other day, her reaction to me saying she could file was almost like abandonment.
This makes my brain hurt... she wants a divorce... you say if there is a divorce, you two will do it together... then you figure out that you don't want a divorce and tell her if she wants a divorce, she will need to make it happen... then SHE feels abandoned because you refuse to help her break up your marriage....<sigh> I wonder if y'all made a suicide pact and you backed out of it if she would feel abandoned.
She is a child of divorce? That's interesting. So all the while your religious culture was pressuring you two to walk the straight and narrow, and telling you that divorce was not an option, her parents-- hypocritically-- broke the rules???
When you say that the younger siblings "are really upset about this"-- upset about you and W's separation, or about their parents' divorce?
BTW, how did the extended family/community react to your W's parents' divorce? Are they still part of the strict religious community, or have they been kicked out?
Why did they divorce? Was there another person for either parent? Are the parents much happier with their lives now? If they are, then your W does have a basis for believing her life will improve after D.
Quote: I wonder if y'all made a suicide pact and you backed out of it if she would feel abandoned.
I apologize for this. That was over the top and uncalled for. Very sorry.
I guess what I'm thinking is that if she will not go through with a divorce unless YOU initiate and carry it out, your fear is not so much that SHE will go to a lawyer and serve papers on you, as it is that she will persuade YOU to do it. Does that make sense? You're afraid that you will cave in and do what she wants against your will and against your better judgment-- is that it?
But if that is so... examine for a moment the irony and absurdity of that position (meaning absolutely no disrespect... in fact, I have a LOT of respect for you):
1) she is angry at you and wants a divorce 2) she wants YOU to agree to a D and set it in motion 3) you're afraid you might give in and do it 4) SO SHE WON'T BE ANGRY WITH YOU
So you're in a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't sitch. It's your fear of her anger that keeps you there, not your fear of D. Because she has made it clear she won't D unless you do it.
And, as has already been suggested here (and you've figured out, too), your fear of HER anger is really your fear of YOUR anger... so, theoretically, if you spend some time "getting in touch with" your anger, that should release some of the pressure... and you can do this on your own, in a journal, or do it here. I don't think you should share with her until you get an idea of the magnitude of yours.
That was over the top and uncalled for. Very sorry.