Rigley, I perfectly understand your wife's anger. Even her intense anger; I've experienced this myself.
It is hard to explain to a man what effect sexual rejection has on a woman. Yes, yes I know men feel rejection deeply, but I maintain that it is entirely different with women, due to our cultural upbringing. It is a mindfcuk of the highest kind, to feel unattractive to your mate. Like it or not, so much of women's sense of self worth is related to how sexually desirable they are. You know that saying, hell hath no fury..? It is so true!! I stayed angry with my H for a long time--just look back through some of my posts and it practically jumps out at you.
Here is what my H did: He stayed steadfast and calm. He was willing to own up to his mistakes and, more importantly, try to change for the better. He did not allow my verbal histrionics to persuade him into taking more responsibility than what he should. He got upset when I attacked him (and boy did I ever) but he regrouped and went back to being the strong manly guy that I needed. He went out on a limb and slowly started showing me his desire and built from there--even in the face of my withering criticism.
He didn't do everything right and I wasn't always a shrew but you get my drift. I loved him, passionately loved him, but I was so mad at being put in the position that I was in...being the intiator, being the sexual 'cop' of the R, feeling undesirable and therefore worthless, man I was just so sick of what he had done to our relationship. I'm sure I was not the most attractive person all the time--the lack of sex had the result of making me feel irritated ALL the time.
Here is a question for you: How much of your erectile difficulties have you discussed with your wife? Have you two been to a sexual counselor? Has she ever read any books relating to ED? I can't imagine what it feels like to be in this situation--it is devastating from both perspectives.
Anyway, when your wife acknowledges how angry she is, there really is no reply necessary. "Fair enough" or something like that if you feel that you absolutely must say something. You rush in to settle the scene down but you are not doing it for her, as Cobra noted, you are doing it for you and *believe me* she knows this. Women are much more perceptive than men are about emotion and 'reading' a situation, in general. She's peeved off and rightfully so. Acknowledge her anger but be strong in the face of it. This is what she will find attractive and intriguing.
I'm glad you saw the poor me's for what it is--an annoying crutch. I spent a bunch of time with my mom recently and came home last night just irritated as all h*ll at her and then realized: I'm just like that! So maybe we can both embark on a journey to ditching our parent's bad habits, lol.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, HP. [edited to add: I'm going to read it over and over.] I believe you that women feel sexual rejection deeper than men. I can see it in my wife's eyes and it's like staring into a volcano knowing that it's her response to me that's created it, and that it could blow at any minute and repeatedly. I think that's why I panicked in our relationship discussion recently. Frankly, it's terrifying. It must be doubly so for her. I need to keep that in mind, but somehow separate myself from the guilt and shame enough to do what your husband did. You've got a good man if he was able to turn himself around in the middle of this, and you must be one hell of a woman for him to stick to it.
Here is a question for you:
How much of your erectile difficulties have you discussed with your wife? Have you two been to a sexual counselor? Has she ever read any books relating to ED?
It took me way too long to fess up to it. I was doing my best to cope with it by myself because I thought it meant I was defective, and that there was no hope. Once I did start learning about it, and understanding it, my wife was too angry and hurt to listen. To her it was deflection. She was absolutely convinced that I wasn't attracted to her. I don't see how she could have thought anything else.
I have read her materials on ED. We went to a very good sex therapist who tried to explain what was going on to her, but I think he was too unsympathetic to her. She was infuriated, and refused to continue treatment.
I can't imagine what it feels like to be in this situation--it is devastating from both perspectives.
Yeah. For the guy's perspective, imagine having a perfectly good car that would die on the freeway once every few months. It's incredibly frustrating and upsetting in the moment, but even more, every single time you take it out for a drive you wonder if it's going to happen. You end up not offering to drive your friends to dinner, etc. You only want to drive it when you're by yourself. Add to this that the more you worry about it, the worse it gets.
You and others here are helping me to understand the other side of it.
I'm glad you saw the poor me's for what it is--an annoying crutch. I spent a bunch of time with my mom recently and came home last night just irritated as all h*ll at her and then realized: I'm just like that! So maybe we can both embark on a journey to ditching our parent's bad habits, lol.
Heh. And someday my kids will take it one step further (I hope)
I think her intent was to say "Just because I'm being nice doesn't mean I'm backing down."
I will not try to manipulate her into staying with me. But I won't let her guilt me into divorcing her either. I feel like this is a healthy position for me to take. It's extremely difficult for me to contradict her, though. It feels like I'm not being nice, and it makes me fear that she won't like me, and might get mad at me. But not standing my ground is one of the reasons I'm in this place.
If it's hard for you to contradict her, then don't. Say something like "I don't know enough to answer that right now." If she accuses you of deflecting, say, "Yes, I am." Don't apologize... you're not doing anything wrong.
Quote: It feels like I'm not being nice, and it makes me fear that she won't like me, and might get mad at me.
Think of it this way: what if one of your children wanted to eat poison and begged you to give it to him/her... and then got furious at you when you wouldn't do it?
Also, if you do any journaling... get in touch with that feeling when she asks you something and you want to cave, and instead you stand your ground and she becomes furious... what is that like for you? Where do you feel it? (I'm not asking you to tell me or post the answer, just feel it.) In your stomach, headache, want to cry, dry mouth, what sitch in your childhood does it remind you of, when did you have those feelings in the past? There's nothing pathological about this... I'm not suggesting that. It's helpful to uncover those past connections. Often it takes away the terror of our partner's anger. (I also avoid subjects and rephrase things so my bf won't snap at me.)
I admire the he11 out of you two for going to a sex therapist over the ED issue. That took SOME kind of guts. It's curious that she used the counselor's personality and manner as a reason for blowing off the clinical truth. Why is/was she so convinced that your ED was due to not finding her attractive? Where did she get that idea? Given y'all's background, I'm thinking you two went into this pretty ill-informed about the nuts and bolts (as it were) of sex.
what sitch in your childhood does it remind you of, when did you have those feelings in the past?
Fantastic suggestion to journal on this. The Nice Guy book I'm reading talks a lot about rewriting childhood paradigms that came about from abandonment, etc., but gave no clue how to link current feelings to past feelings. Your suggestion fills in the blank.
It's curious that she used the counselor's personality and manner as a reason for blowing off the clinical truth. Why is/was she so convinced that your ED was due to not finding her attractive? Where did she get that idea?
She got the idea from experience. The horrible thing about ED is that it has a cascading effect. This is all in retrospect, but I'll tell you how it affected me.
I lose my erection -> I feel like less than a real man -> I act hesitantly -> she picks up on this and feels like less than a sexy woman -> I pick up on this and feel pressure to make her feel like a sexy woman -> I'm worried about losing my erection rather than enjoying sex -> eventually I do lose my erection -> she's hurt, thinking it's her fault -> I feel horrible for me and her -> I stop flirting and pursuing because I'm worried that I won't be able to follow through -> she concludes that I don't find her attractive.
She FEELS like I think she's unattractive, and is angry, and no amount of logic or explanation has been able to reverse that feeling. If you put this "new knowledge" together with my history of saying anything to appease her, you can understand why she wouldn't buy it.
But when it comes to the therapist, he essentially laid the cards on the table that our situation was the result of our family and religious upbringing, and that reversing it was entirely possible, but would involve learning how to have awkward conversations.
Awkward conversations are not what she wants. She wants hot sex. I can't blame her.
Your Wife is every bit as responsible for what is going on as you are. You mentioned she had 'read all those books', yet She was still unable to change her behaviors enough to move your R in a positive direction. Specifically her anger, and the constant testing to see how you would react to her negative pushing away, and abusing you for your heistation and uncertainty in the bedroom. I understand why its so elevated now, but its been a constant with her. Its certainly not supportive and loving. Its ridiculous.
You know where the majority of your 'weakness and placating' was in that last failed interaction (why were you discussing the R?, you dont have one), but you would do yourself and your goals a much better service if you were to completely sever all contact with your W, (except to pick up and drop off your kids) then continuing to act like that. Your going thru a really hard time, its painful and sucks hugely. Its making you seek her approval IN practically every single thing you do, and you were allready prone to do that. This IS not something to beat yourself up over. It is something for you to take some time off for you, and get a grip on. HP said Women are much more perceptive than men are about emotion and 'reading' a situation, in general.
I remention this because allmost everything you are doing -from leaving pajama's on the front steps to contacting her about your sons bday- is supplicating and seeking her approval.
Your W has loads of guilt and believes you should be angry with her. Trying to be nice to her is blowing sunshine up her dress, and makes her more angry at you for not being truthful. Being angry is not a 'bad' thing. Honesty is never the wrong action to take. Being vicious, and angrily lashing out in revenge, is not honest or beneficial either. There is a distinct differance.
Awkward conversations are not what she wants. She wants hot sex. I can't blame her.
That mind set is placating. Do you think your going to get thru this without some really uncomfortable, and awkward conversations?
Your W is speaking and acting in ways that suggest she is having an A. Others in your social group are reinforcing my assumption. I sincerely hope I am wrong, but there are differances in how you need to deal with this. Are you still working with a coach?
We were given no resources for solving sexual problems...we were taught that everything was supposed to just work if we had remained pure...we did, and they didn't We were taught that psychology was tantamount to witchcraft and that the answer to all our problems was in prayer, reading the scripture, and spending time with others in our group
Being virgins is not the source of either of your problems. Your not the first in history, by any stretch of the imagination. I know nothing of your particular religions teachings, and its not at fault either. There are numerous scriptural examples and references to how H and W should behave and deal with each other. There is definitely no scripture that says 'kiss your W's ass in the hopes that she will like you.' If your so inclined Ill be happy to point them out to you when I have some time.
Your Wife is every bit as responsible for what is going on as you are.
I am starting to see this. In fact, all the books I read said that getting over ED requires a cooperative couple. She didn't want to hear that. The sex therapist wouldn't see us until my wife called him. That took her several weeks, and then she scheduled an appt weeks later because she didn't want to ask friends to watch our kids. It was enfuriating, but I felt like I couldn't push her.
In fact, that's what's getting me the most mad today. I'm feeling again like I'm trying not to ruffle her feathers, afriad that she'll get mad, push the divorce, expose me, or whatever. It's making me feel that little school boy again ... it sucks!
Its certainly not supportive and loving. Its ridiculous.
That's definitely true. And when I finally told her how I felt about how she treated me, she reacted with remorse at first, and then turned it back around on me the next day.
you would do yourself and your goals a much better service if you were to completely sever all contact with your W, (except to pick up and drop off your kids) then continuing to act like that.
I agree that I can't afford to have another episode like that. Besides the setback to halting the divorce, it really knocked me in the gut. I'm still trying to recover.
Its making you seek her approval IN practically every single thing you do, and you were allready prone to do that. This IS not something to beat yourself up over. It is something for you to take some time off for you, and get a grip on.
Yeah. I've got to not seek her approval. This is a mud pit I'm going to have to pull myself out of every day, and make sure I'm not in before I interact with her.
allmost everything you are doing -from leaving pajama's on the front steps to contacting her about your sons bday- is supplicating and seeking her approval.
Hmmmmm. I think what I may have been missing here is that the subtle rationale I have for these things may not matter if she feels like I'm supplicating. I thought I was being responsible by exchanging those pajamas -- but by God you're right, it made me look like I was trying to win her approval, as evidenced by her rude response. On the birthday gift, he's my son, and I want to be involved in his birthday. But what my wife doesn't know, and what has been eating at me, is that while I was calling those 30 stores to find his present (birthdays just after Christmas really suck) I was thinking about her. "I'd better call every freaking store in this half of the state, because if I don't she'll be mad." Criminey.
Your W has loads of guilt and believes you should be angry with her. Trying to be nice to her is blowing sunshine up her dress, and makes her more angry at you for not being truthful. Being angry is not a 'bad' thing. Honesty is never the wrong action to take. Being vicious, and angrily lashing out in revenge, is not honest or beneficial either. There is a distinct differance.
And this is my struggle. You read some of my exchange with LP. When I said that contradicting her makes me feel like I'm not being nice, I was conscious of the fact that that was a mistaken view of niceness. It's ridiculous to think that I'm being rude not to help her leave me.
I have a ridiculous amount of trouble taking a stand in the face of opposition, without using some ploy to make myself seem unselfish in doing so. What I'm trying to come to terms with is that using a ploy actually MAKES me the bad guy ... it doesn't keep me from being the bad guy.
So my test here, as she's trying to get me to agree to divorce, is to say that it's not what I want, without offering some lame excuse about how I'm really doing this for her. And I need to be able to stand firm when she pulls out the rage and the guilt and the threats ("how are we supposed to be friends if we both want different things.").
Awkward conversations are not what she wants. She wants hot sex. I can't blame her.
That mind set is placating. Do you think your going to get thru this without some really uncomfortable, and awkward conversations?
Absolutely not. And to get back to being honest, ... sigh
bigger sigh
...
when I said "I can't blame her" I was looking for the approval of the women on this BB.
I'm ashamed that I haven't been able to just "take her." It's humiliating. It makes me want to offer some apology at every turn.
Your W is speaking and acting in ways that suggest she is having an A. Others in your social group are reinforcing my assumption. I sincerely hope I am wrong, but there are differances in how you need to deal with this.
If she is, it's only in the last few weeks. Our life has been non-stop for years. If she wasn't with the kids or me, she was with her friend (who would never let her have an affair), or at work (which was only one evening a week). There is no other man, aside from McDreamy on Grey's Anatomy (and all the other made up men on TV and in her novels). This is all about dissatisfaction with her lifestyle and our (previous) relationship.
Are you still working with a coach?
I'm thinking it's time to give him a call.
Being virgins is not the source of either of your problems. Your not the first in history, by any stretch of the imagination.
I think it's an oversimplification to think that we were just virgins. We were in our twenties and had had no flirting physical contact whatsoever, and were under a microscope during our engagement. We had rules, expectations, and fears up to our necks. Still, I agree that these weren't the source of our problems ... I think the source to mine are more likely in early childhood ... but they absolutely complicated things tremendously.
There are numerous scriptural examples and references to how H and W should behave and deal with each other.There is definitely no scripture that says 'kiss your W's ass in the hopes that she will like you.'
HAH! :-)
If your so inclined Ill be happy to point them out to you when I have some time.
Happy to read any scripture you send my way ... scripture was not my problem. Certain extra-scriptural teachings were.
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It's good to hear from you blackfoot. Your point of view is invaluable, but it underscores some of the difficulty I'm having with this whole divorce busting thing.
Contact, or no contact Loving, or detached Showing anger, or avoiding arguments Showing attraction, or avoiding the appearance of supplicating
I understand that it's a difficult problem with a difficult solution, and it's up to me to work it all out.
I am indebted to all of you for your perspectives, because I'm convinced that somewhere in the middle of it all is the truth that I need to follow. I'm hoping it will work itself out in my dreams tonight
Quote: I lose my erection -> I feel like less than a real man -> I act hesitantly -> she picks up on this and feels like less than a sexy woman -> I pick up on this and feel pressure to make her feel like a sexy woman -> I'm worried about losing my erection rather than enjoying sex -> eventually I do lose my erection -> she's hurt, thinking it's her fault -> I feel horrible for me and her -> I stop flirting and pursuing because I'm worried that I won't be able to follow through -> she concludes that I don't find her attractive.
I think it's great that you have the self-awareness to figure this out. However, it seems to me that you could probably start the cycle at any point and keep circling around. For instance, my situation s*cked worse than your wife's because my H chose to blame me and say that the cycle actually started with me being unattractive. I think that your situation is more hopeful because at least you didn't do this. It really is more "her" problem if your lack of sexual behavior made her feel unattractive, though I absolutely agree with HP that almost all women would tend to feel this way. However, consider how you might feel if your W was a much more sexually confident, less emotionally fused/reactive woman and she were to say something with a smile on her face like "That's okay if you're not in the mood Honey(not hard) just 'do' me.". You would probably still feel somewhat like cr*p about your ED in that situation, right? That is why it is "your" problem too. You need to be able to achieve that relaxed mindset in which you can think ahead with confidence and act cocksure even if you aren't cocksure and reply to the lady "I'd love to 'do' you and probably by the time you're "done", I'll need some "doing" myself.". I understand that this wouldn't be easy for a man, but consider how "easy" it might be for a woman who has been given every indication that a man finds her unattractive to approach that man for sex. For instance, you indicated that your W had an issue with her weight. Consider that surveys show that the number one reason a woman will reject any sexual position is that she thinks that sexual position will make her look fat to her partner and you will be just seeing the tip of the iceberg of the rampant spread of poor body image amongst women in our society. The fact that your W is now on some sort of weight loss/running self-improvement program does not work in your favor because if she is like me during my angry phase she is probably powering her workout with thoughts like "I will show that f*ckhead that some men find me attractive.". Word to the wise-Do not ever say anything to her like "You are looking really hot now that you've been running." and make a move. She will interpret this as "I was punishing you for being somewhat overweight by withholding sex." and she will be acquited by a jury of her peers if she kills you on the spot. You need to hope that she will eventually get to a more enlightened place in which she is taking good care of her body out of gratitude to the Goddess (the non-neo-pagan version would work too)for giving her such a finely responsive sexual machine and feeling more accepting of any imperfections. If I were her friend, I would suggest that instead of spending an hour at the gym each day, she should spend half an hour at the gym and half an hour doing a meditation in which she is sitting cross-legged naked on a bed in front of a mirror and a man is standing in front of her limp and desperate and she must maintain a sense of grace and a spirit of generousity. Hmmmm.. how can I transform this into advice for you? The best that I can do is suggest that you should be very calm and firm in all your interactions with your wife because lack of sex has knocked her pretty much literally into a state of hysteria. If you could actually have sex with her that would be even better but here are some sort of sex substitutes that might work:
1) Do something to her or even for her that involves the use of your muscles. Washing the dishes is placating behavior but chopping the wood pile isn't. Changing the baby's diaper is placating behavior but carrying the baby for her isn't, especially if you insist on doing it. My H once earned the equivalent of several good f*cks in my book by throwing me around in the water at the lake.
2) Be monosyllabic. I don't know why this works but it does. Think John Wayne.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You need to be able to achieve that relaxed mindset in which you can think ahead with confidence and act cocksure even if you aren't cocksure
You are right. Confidence and relaxation have a ton do to with it. I need to get to the place where I am much less dependent on what I think she thinks about me.
consider how "easy" it might be for a woman who has been given every indication that a man finds her unattractive to approach that man for sex.
It has to be extremely difficult, because the times that I haven't responded to her approach have been extremely hurtful to her.
Word to the wise-Do not ever say anything to her like "You are looking really hot now that you've been running." and make a move. She will interpret this as "I was punishing you for being somewhat overweight by withholding sex." and she will be acquited by a jury of her peers if she kills you on the spot.
Fortunately I have never, not even once, made a derrogatory comment about her weight. And in my opinion she looked great before the current weight loss. She has walked around thinking she was fat since she was a kid, thanks to her family. I have a picture of her on my computer with my son. I think she's stunning. She saw it the other day and said "I look fat in that picture." I said with all sinceity "I think you look absolutely beautiful."
What she doesn't realize is that the thing I find most attractive about her is her smile. And she gives that to me so infrequently.
a man is standing in front of her limp and desperate
Since this man is limp can we pretend he's someone else? And can I be standing in front of her too with a rock hard erection? Sorry, that may be too much from Friday morning.
The best that I can do is suggest that you should be very calm and firm in all your interactions with your wife because lack of sex has knocked her pretty much literally into a state of hysteria.
It's having a similar effect on me. It's not JUST lack of sex, though. It's lack of fun. This is a fun girl living a very demanding life. And since we haven't been clicking, our fun times have not been fun. I haven't been fun.
1) Do something to her or even for her that involves the use of your muscles.
2) Be monosyllabic. I don't know why this works but it does. Think John Wayne.
