Ok, maybe I could be a little more diplomatic, but what I was actually trying to do in part was to fire up his anger. I do believe this anger will come out… sooner or later. The sooner would be out of realization over the hurt Rig suffered from his FOO. The later would be anger over his wife leaving him and splitting up the family, anger that would really be misplaced. If Rigley waits until this latter event occurs, then he and his W will be fighting and blaming each other, when in fact I see them on the same team, but at that point it will be too late and almost irreversible.
So, sorry if I was too harsh Rigley. Try to listen through the delivery and into the message. I’ve been where you are heading and it is not the path to choose. My marriage is only recently improving dramatically because of the long learning process we have gone through but also learning that we each have wounds that cause us to react as we do. We are learning not to react as much toward each other’s frustrations but to understand that there are reasons why we get upset that have less to do with each other and more to do with our upbringing. IMO, this is the value in trying to get your partner to understand that you are really on their side and do not want to D. It is the difference between working together and working against one another.
BTW, have you picked up a copy of Dieda’s book?
I’m just seeing the latest posts by Lil…. One thing I am coming to disagree with is this general idea:
So if Rig detaches himself using the guidelines of the differentiation post (e.g., it's okay to let people feel bad without trying to fix them, etc.) and she is STILL angry, she will have a harder time blaming him for her anger. She will probably still try to do it, but it won't stick.
I understand the logic of this and think it does work… but only with people sufficiently functional to realize what is going on and do the self analysis. With other people, like Rig’s wife, my wife, myself, my mother, and tons others, I do not think this will necessarily work. At some point it might, but that time could be long in coming. The danger is that the other person does not ever see the logic that the only one to blame is him/herself, that instead they just keep the anger behind an ever growing wall of denial. If that wall gets high enough, that person will never be able to tear it down on his/her own.
I no longer think disengagement is the answer. I think engagement is CRITICAL. But it has to be the right kind of engagement, and the person doing this needs to be aware of the issues. There is a certain amount of competency required, but once gained (either through self learning like on this board, or through the use of a competent counselor), the right kind of engagement can make all the difference. Carrot and stick, radical honesty, firm boundaries, no fantasies, a sufficient level of differentiation… all these are required to properly engage. Then, when the both of you have your buttons pushed, you will at least be able to patch things over by talking about the FOO issues, your hidden fears, that made you act as you did. This is what usually triggers the sense of compassion in the other.
Totally disengaging and waiting for the other person to realize their own issues seems to not create this sense of compassion in the other person, which is really what we are trying to do. That seems to be what Rigley wants. He can try to grow out of his self pity mode, but that will always be a part of him. His W has the same thing in her, and it will never completely go away. So learning that this is a tool, an opening to let the other person bond can be used to great advantage. Disengaging will never do this.
The question of HD being an excuse for crude behavior falls away with this point of view. Poor behavior and HD itself are all just different means of crying out for validation, connection, security, comfort. I see these two behaviors as the same. Sure HD can have a biological component to it, but how many times have we seen an HD person suddenly drop off to LD? That makes me think those with a truly chemical bent to HD are actually quite rare. I am not sure that we have even seen one on this board, and that includes CeMar!
cobra, I wasn't suggesting that you be more diplomatic... it's just that I wanted to make sure your meaning was CLEAR. You weren't being "harsh"-- it's interesting that you took my comments that way. I just thought that by saying Rig was being "egotistical," the subtlety of your message was lost.
Also I didn't mean that Rig should totally disengage with his wife... just that he should not jump into the pit with her. Again, you took that wrong. You consistently misunderstand (not deliberately) language that has to do with differentiation. You hear me saying "walk away, don't talk to them, ignore them" and that's not it at all. You aren't ignoring the alcoholic when you leave him to dry out on the lawn overnight, although at first he and the neighbors probably see it that way. You're removing yourself from the internal struggle he is having with the alcohol, so that he can see the struggls is inside of him NOT with you.
And again, you misunderstood when you said
Quote: The danger is that the other person does not ever see the logic
This hasn't got one blessed thing to do with logic or reason. When the drunk wakes up on the lawn, it isn't logic that hits him between the eyes. It's a visceral, below-the-neck sense that the alcohol is ruining his life--- and that he's doing this all by himself.
Still, I DO love these little disagreements between us ... I hope Rig is enjoying this dialogue, too.
___________
Edited to add: cobra, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the kind of dis-engagement I'm talking about forces the other person to have a non-verbal enounter with his/her own Stuff. Instead of you (or whoever) being part of the transaction and trying to "reason" with them, which I believe will not work, you remove yourself verbally from the conversation, you refuse to jump in the pit with them, and that leaves them in the pit with their own sh!t. You leave them in a place where they have an EXPERIENCE... not more verbal back-and-forth.
I need to catch up, and I'm still in the middle of responding to Cobra, but I need to interrupt with a bulletin, because it seems very pertinent to the anger discussion going on.
I helped my kids buy presents for my wife. S4 picked out pajamas, but I got the wrong size. I went last night and exchanged them, and left them on the doorstep. Then I got this email from my wife:
"i just went outside--i already exchanged my pj's and i'm wearing them so i hope you can return the one's that you bought. i can take care of myself."
Mean. I replied:
"I can take them back. I know you can take care of yourself, but this was a present from S4, and it was my responsibility. Regardless, I'm glad you have your pj's."
To which she replied:
"i am so angry and i want to let that go--i'm sorry."
Which of course makes me want to sqeeze her and kiss her and STOP!!! :-)
Here's the reply I'm considering:
"Thank you. But you're angry for a reason. I don't know whether it was me or someone else, but someone has made you feel like you couldn't take care of yourself. And you can not only take good care of yourself, but you're taken good care of your patients and the kids and ME. I think I owe it to you to listen to you and ask myself if I'm the one who's made you feel like this."
She just said she can take care of herself.
Let her. Be patient sounds like you're still
looking for the perfect thing to say. It sounds
smothering, jumping at the chance
to "fix" things (her).
This is just my opinion, do what you think
is right for you.
I agree. I'm having trouble with this because I traditionally alternate between the extremes of being helplessly dependent and completely self absorbed. I go into my own world until she complains about our relationship, and then I swing to the other side and do everything I can to placate her, and have this horrible fear of losing her.
I think you're right to say that this is a self-centered approach to the relationship, and that my fears are pushing me from one extreme to the other, and making it difficult for me to have a healthy day-to-day relationship with her. Bottom line, I still feel like I don't have what it takes to be a good husband and lover to her, and that I have to manipulate her to keep her.
Ouch.
No, that's too harsh. I've moved away from that some, and I am continuing to have a more realistic opinion of my worth, but under the direct pressure of her disapproval, I completely reverted. I immediately saw what I was doing wrong, but instead of walking away, I kept playing those same old cards. By the end of it, I was hating myself again, feeling worthless, etc.
Being a loner is a lifelong habit that I've used to cope with being alone. I don't feel like people want to be with me, so I don't make an effort to be with them. But then I'm lonely. Do you see how it's difficult to separate differentiation from being a loner?
I see your backtracking and slips into panic mode as your unresolved FOO issues coming back to haunt you ... that you really need to face head on before you can overcome the anxiety and panic attacks that hit you.
I fear being alone. I fear not being loved. I fear being bullied and belittled.
All three of these things are happening to me right now in epic proportions, and all because of my wife. So I suppose it's really important for me to not seek her approval right now, because it's my best opportunity to face my demons. Maybe I've been putting too much of the blame for how I feel on her, and not enough on how those fears and feelings originated. (BTW, I think she's doing that to me too.)
Actually, in a way I think your wife is ahead of you here. She has come to realize her anger with those in her past who have harmed, shamed, controlled her. She seems to be getting in touch that anger and is frustrated that you are not acknowledging her...I wonder how your wife would react if she saw the same anger in you as she has within herself. She might feel validated. She might feel that she can relate to you and that you are on her team.
I agree that she is in touch with that anger. But what more could I do to acknowledge her?
If you had [gotten in touch with your fears], you would be more knowledgeable of your fears, where they come from and why, and they would not take control of you as they did the other night.
Yes. Though I understand these things, I'm not a completely changed man. And I weakend myself by fantisizing about her. I had spent a good deal of time the night before thinking about slipping into bed with her, or having one of those break-the-tension passionate sex scenes from TV. I was setting myself up.
As it is, I see you trying to placate her, which is just a subtle way of telling her you do not believe what she is saying and that she is crazy. In this way, she might be feeling that you are playing a control game, trying to “one up” her and be the good guy. This is all a denial of her reality and in this light, her anger at you certainly makes sense.
I think you're right about me and her.
My advice to you is to sit down and talk about her past and why she is mad at her family, the church, whomever. Then talk to her about your same experiences and get in touch with whatever anger you may have bottled up. Let her lead you in this.
OK, I need something more practical here. What do you mean by "get in touch" with my anger, especially in the context of a conversation with her?
Then the two of you will be on one team, and the dragon of your common past will be one the other team. I think this could help her feel validated, feel a part of you, let her know that you truly understand what she is upset about, and that you are on her side.
I'm not sure she thinks she's angry about her past so much anymore. There was a time when we sat down and talked about all this, and we both got very angry. I probably didn't show all my anger, but it was clear that we both thought we got a raw deal.
Problem was, she took that to the next step: We got a raw deal, we never should have gotten together, I want out. I really think that in her mind right now what she's angry about is the state of our relationship, and my unwillingness to acknowledge that the problems in our relationship are a result of our incompatibility. I think I have recently acknowledged her anger about the relationship, and I let her know what her part in that was. She then wanted me to acknowledge her point that it's irreconcilable. That's when I started placating again, which really didn't help.
If you cannot see her point of view, and make it clear to her that you see her point of view, I would think that all attempts you make at reconciliation would seem hollow. I can see why she would question your true motives. I can see why she sees no other option than to divorce. Can you see that too?
I do see that when I just tell her what she wants to hear, she probably thinks I'm just pacifying her, that I think she's crazy, and that this will all blow over. IF there is going to be any relationship talk, it needs to be honest and without fear of the consequences. I have to have the strength to listen to her criticism and rejection, sort that out, and STILL figure out which issues are mine to deal with and which are hers.
When you do your backtracking, your placating, your are not really trying to please her and make her happy. You are doing this to protect yourself.
I absolutely agree. I'm trying to get myself out of trouble.
She tells you directly that she does not like this part of you, yet you do it. Why? It is to protect you from her abandoning you ... you are trying to covertly manipulate her back into submission. ... Why do you hold on to this tactic? Are you afraid to change?
I absolutely must change as quickly and dramatically as possible. That said, it's a 40-year-old habit. I'm patting myself on the back that I realized I had done it within a couple of hours. You pointing it out, though, is really helpful, because I need to see it from all angles, as many times as possible, before I can get rid of it in all its subtle forms. Thank you.
That is understandable since it means you must find yourself and stand on your own feet, rather than leaning on others, but that is what you really want, and what I think she wants. So the more you placate, the angrier she gets. The more you become assertive and self confident, the more she feels relieved and protected.
Brilliant. Remember Indiana Jones stepping out onto that invisible bridge, though? The audience got to see bridge from a different angle after he had taken his first step. But I bet (in that imaginary situation) he still couldn't see there was a bridge in front of him. Each step is a step of faith. That's what I feel like. Some steps I'm completely confident, others I'm like WTH?! I don't know what I'm doing!
I can even make the case that all the work you are doing on yourself right now could actually make things worse. Sure you need to learn what others are saying, but to your wife, it could all be seen as one more example of how you, and indirectly she, should follow the “rules” and control your behavior. I’m not sure that is the right message to send someone who is trying to rebel and get out from under some perceived “oppression.”
Well, I think it's wise of me to go back to letting her see results, rather than filling her in on the process.
Before I read your second post, I'm replying: do not engage further on this topic. Don't try to fix her, teach her, or analyze her.
You bring the new pj's was sweet. Her reply was mean. You got that right. She was baiting you and you took the bait. IMHO you should not have replied at all.
The other thought I had was that I am in awe of Rig's Wife. She must be very high drive indeed. She has young children, a new unstable career, unsupportive relatives, a prudish background, no new man lined up through adultery and still she is able to tell herself that she deserves a better sex life and she will do what is necessary to get one. Who wouldn't want to f*ck her? Rig better get his act together pronto.
Add to this that she has lost a ton of weight and has been running, and feels really sexy.
You're right, MJ. She wants fun, she wants sex. She sees me as a killjoy and sexually defective.
These perceptions of me have been growing over the last couple of years. It's been self-fulfilling. We're at a party, and she says I'm no fun. I feel defeated, and instantly become even less fun. After sex she says I didn't seem into it. The next time I'm thinking "I have to REALLY show her I'm into it." Unfortunately, this kind of thinking triggers the whole ED thing.
The bottom line is that I haven't taken the innitiative to find out why I have trouble having fun at a party, or showing passion during sex ... until now. Now, I understand why, though I haven't solved all the issues. But she doesn't want to take a chance.
This is an uphill battle. Oddly, though, I'm loving it. As I'm figuring things out, gaining strength, I'm finding that half of the time I'm charged about meeting the challenge. For me, this is absolutely revolutionary. I also feel more sexual than ever, and I'm starting to dream about my future. MY future.
Quote: I fear being alone. I fear not being loved. I fear being bullied and belittled.
All three of these things are happening to me right now in epic proportions, and all because of my wife.
It's not because of your wife; it's because of these fears. The fear makes you vulnerable to your wife's tactics. You're right though about needing to confront these demons.
Re your reply to cobra:
Quote: cobra: I can even make the case that all the work you are doing on yourself right now could actually make things worse. [snip] ...to your wife, it could all be seen as one more example of how you, and indirectly she, should follow the “rules” and control your behavior
Rig: Well, I think it's wise of me to go back to letting her see results, rather than filling her in on the process.
This is where cobra and I disagree. I think "letting her see results" is still placating her. You're still REACTING to her instead of spontaneously acting from your own insides. So instead of wimping out and handling her with kid gloves, you do a complete switch and act the strong manly man. I think you need to stop playing any role at all. Stop switching your actions to match what you think will get through to her.
This is so insightful:
Quote: I go into my own world until she complains about our relationship, and then I swing to the other side and do everything I can to placate her, and have this horrible fear of losing her.
Placating her by "acting like" someone who is differentiated won't work either.
Regarding the differentiation stuff: when you read it, does it ring true to you? Do you see that refraining from trying to "fix" someone is kindness? Can you buy this:
Quote: Recognize that "it's not about me" when someone near and dear "loses it" or becomes anxious. They don't personalize others' behavior.
Her ugly behavior toward you is about HER inner struggle, and as they say in alanon: you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. The only way to prove this is NOT to engage and for her to see that the anger is there anyway.
As for "getting in touch" with your anger, that's a good idea, but I suggest doing this on your own, not with her. Get a notebook or open a password-protected word doc and just spew out whatever... and promise yourself that you will NEVER share this with anyone. You cannot be totally frank if you imagine anyone ever reading it. And then forgive yourself constantly for the anger... forgive yourself over and over again.
Then you will be practicing this
Quote: Refuse to project their own conflicts onto their partners, and refuse to allow others to project theirs onto them. They fight their own battles within themselves where the fight belongs.
You know, she's probably carrying some or all of your anger... that's an unconscious deal some couples make. One is the nice person and the other one is the angry one. It would also explain why her anger is so monumental... if she's angry for two. Yes, that is a kind of mystical Jungian concept. If you reclaim your anger, hers might diminish. Were you allowed to be angry in your FOO.
(I also agree that she is to be congratulated for finding her anger. But right now she's like a firehose out of control, instead of a directed stream.)
Edited to add:
Re your reply to Mojo: lack of sexual passion can be attributed to depression... and depression can occur when anger is stuffed down instead of felt and acknowledged.
do not engage further on this topic. Don't try to fix her, teach her, or analyze her.
She was baiting me, and it's true that I was totally at her mercy once I'd responded. Odds are, she would have felt bad even if I hadn't made an attempt at justifying myself. But she could just have easily said "bullsh!t" ... he's making that up.
So I'm not going to reply, because she's trying to pull me into the pit.
... I hope Rig is enjoying this dialogue, too.