I agree. I'm having trouble with this because I traditionally alternate between the extremes of being helplessly dependent and completely self absorbed. I go into my own world until she complains about our relationship, and then I swing to the other side and do everything I can to placate her, and have this horrible fear of losing her.
I think you're right to say that this is a self-centered approach to the relationship, and that my fears are pushing me from one extreme to the other, and making it difficult for me to have a healthy day-to-day relationship with her. Bottom line, I still feel like I don't have what it takes to be a good husband and lover to her, and that I have to manipulate her to keep her.
Ouch.
No, that's too harsh. I've moved away from that some, and I am continuing to have a more realistic opinion of my worth, but under the direct pressure of her disapproval, I completely reverted. I immediately saw what I was doing wrong, but instead of walking away, I kept playing those same old cards. By the end of it, I was hating myself again, feeling worthless, etc.
Being a loner is a lifelong habit that I've used to cope with being alone. I don't feel like people want to be with me, so I don't make an effort to be with them. But then I'm lonely. Do you see how it's difficult to separate differentiation from being a loner?
I see your backtracking and slips into panic mode as your unresolved FOO issues coming back to haunt you ... that you really need to face head on before you can overcome the anxiety and panic attacks that hit you.
I fear being alone. I fear not being loved. I fear being bullied and belittled.
All three of these things are happening to me right now in epic proportions, and all because of my wife. So I suppose it's really important for me to not seek her approval right now, because it's my best opportunity to face my demons. Maybe I've been putting too much of the blame for how I feel on her, and not enough on how those fears and feelings originated. (BTW, I think she's doing that to me too.)
Actually, in a way I think your wife is ahead of you here. She has come to realize her anger with those in her past who have harmed, shamed, controlled her. She seems to be getting in touch that anger and is frustrated that you are not acknowledging her...I wonder how your wife would react if she saw the same anger in you as she has within herself. She might feel validated. She might feel that she can relate to you and that you are on her team.
I agree that she is in touch with that anger. But what more could I do to acknowledge her?
If you had [gotten in touch with your fears], you would be more knowledgeable of your fears, where they come from and why, and they would not take control of you as they did the other night.
Yes. Though I understand these things, I'm not a completely changed man. And I weakend myself by fantisizing about her. I had spent a good deal of time the night before thinking about slipping into bed with her, or having one of those break-the-tension passionate sex scenes from TV. I was setting myself up.
As it is, I see you trying to placate her, which is just a subtle way of telling her you do not believe what she is saying and that she is crazy. In this way, she might be feeling that you are playing a control game, trying to “one up” her and be the good guy. This is all a denial of her reality and in this light, her anger at you certainly makes sense.
I think you're right about me and her.
My advice to you is to sit down and talk about her past and why she is mad at her family, the church, whomever. Then talk to her about your same experiences and get in touch with whatever anger you may have bottled up. Let her lead you in this.
OK, I need something more practical here. What do you mean by "get in touch" with my anger, especially in the context of a conversation with her?
Then the two of you will be on one team, and the dragon of your common past will be one the other team. I think this could help her feel validated, feel a part of you, let her know that you truly understand what she is upset about, and that you are on her side.
I'm not sure she thinks she's angry about her past so much anymore. There was a time when we sat down and talked about all this, and we both got very angry. I probably didn't show all my anger, but it was clear that we both thought we got a raw deal.
Problem was, she took that to the next step: We got a raw deal, we never should have gotten together, I want out. I really think that in her mind right now what she's angry about is the state of our relationship, and my unwillingness to acknowledge that the problems in our relationship are a result of our incompatibility. I think I have recently acknowledged her anger about the relationship, and I let her know what her part in that was. She then wanted me to acknowledge her point that it's irreconcilable. That's when I started placating again, which really didn't help.
If you cannot see her point of view, and make it clear to her that you see her point of view, I would think that all attempts you make at reconciliation would seem hollow. I can see why she would question your true motives. I can see why she sees no other option than to divorce. Can you see that too?
I do see that when I just tell her what she wants to hear, she probably thinks I'm just pacifying her, that I think she's crazy, and that this will all blow over. IF there is going to be any relationship talk, it needs to be honest and without fear of the consequences. I have to have the strength to listen to her criticism and rejection, sort that out, and STILL figure out which issues are mine to deal with and which are hers.
When you do your backtracking, your placating, your are not really trying to please her and make her happy. You are doing this to protect yourself.
I absolutely agree. I'm trying to get myself out of trouble.
She tells you directly that she does not like this part of you, yet you do it. Why? It is to protect you from her abandoning you ... you are trying to covertly manipulate her back into submission. ... Why do you hold on to this tactic? Are you afraid to change?
I absolutely must change as quickly and dramatically as possible. That said, it's a 40-year-old habit. I'm patting myself on the back that I realized I had done it within a couple of hours. You pointing it out, though, is really helpful, because I need to see it from all angles, as many times as possible, before I can get rid of it in all its subtle forms. Thank you.
That is understandable since it means you must find yourself and stand on your own feet, rather than leaning on others, but that is what you really want, and what I think she wants. So the more you placate, the angrier she gets. The more you become assertive and self confident, the more she feels relieved and protected.
Brilliant. Remember Indiana Jones stepping out onto that invisible bridge, though? The audience got to see bridge from a different angle after he had taken his first step. But I bet (in that imaginary situation) he still couldn't see there was a bridge in front of him. Each step is a step of faith. That's what I feel like. Some steps I'm completely confident, others I'm like WTH?! I don't know what I'm doing!
I can even make the case that all the work you are doing on yourself right now could actually make things worse. Sure you need to learn what others are saying, but to your wife, it could all be seen as one more example of how you, and indirectly she, should follow the “rules” and control your behavior. I’m not sure that is the right message to send someone who is trying to rebel and get out from under some perceived “oppression.”
Well, I think it's wise of me to go back to letting her see results, rather than filling her in on the process.
