She thinks I'm stranding her, making her the bad guy. She is so alone, and so hurt, and I want to comfort her. I'm sobbing here thinking about it. I've tried to be her safe place, but she views everything I do as an underhanded attack.
Rigley, you don't really know WHAT she is thinking and feeling. You don't know what she is going on inside of her. All you know is how she's acting. Yes she's hurt and angry, but you don't know much more than that. It's really impossible to be accurate when trying to figure out what she thinks about you, whether she sees you as the bad guy, whether she sees what you do as an underhanded attack. For all you know, she may secretly be admiring the way you won't abandon her no matter how much of a b!tch she's being. Another reason to keep your focus on yourself. Trying to figure her out will just make you nuts.
It is possible to detach yourself from her pain. This is not cruel. She is doing this to herself. You have not caused it. And you cannot help her except by keeping your stuff and your emotions from becoming entangled with hers. She is perfectly capable of changing her tune and ceasing to suffer over all of this. The fact that she continues to berate you and blame you for how she feels is HER decision and her reading on the sitch. You are NOT the cause of her misery. And she is not the cause of yours. You can have empathy but you don't have to jump in the pit with her. I think you have figured this out already.
Also, when people want a divorce, they go get one. They don't "get their spouse to agree." If she wants a D, she will go to a lawyer, and one day a stranger will serve papers on you. Even then, that may not mean she want's a D. I've known several couples where papers were served and the D never happened. The one partner just did it to get the other partner's attention.
I would ask those on the board who are divorced to confirm or deny this-- when one person is TRULY ready to end the marriage they don't usually wait for their partner to agree to it. They just do it.
I know this is very hard, but try to stay in the moment and not catastrophize about the future or dwell on evils of the recent past. I don't mean to abandon prudent planning or forget your history, but you can lose some precious moments in the present by not staying in the present. This is difficult and Zen practitioners spend lifetimes trying to stay in the present... it is the work of a lifetime. But, for instance, when you're tucking your children into bed, it's so easy to let your thoughts wander to times when you and she did it together, or hypothetical times in the future when you may not be able to do it all the time... and lose the immediacy of right now. In fact, one of the writers I've been reading lately says, "What's wrong with Right Now except for thinking about it?" Again, this is not about burying your head in the sand when disaster is looming... it's about being present in the present.
You're in a very challenging situation and you're doing very well. You're growing a LOT. That growth will always be yours... and yours to pass on to your children when they get old enough to tangle with relationship issues.
In your last post you said basically everything I said before I said it... you don't know what she's really thinking, what she really wants, you don't need to apologize for anything you're doing, no matter how she takes it. *I* think you're right on track. And not just because you agree with me.
It's interesting that you said she forced you to make the "hard" decisions... and yet you are convinced that she sees you as wishy-washy. These two things don't compute together. If she truly believed you were wishy-washy, she would just run roughshod over you... but instead she pushes and pushes until YOU step up to the plate and do what she lacks the guts to do. Clearly she sees you as strong and able to do what she perceives as needing doing.
It seems to me, in light of this, that you're right, she is pushing you to take steps to put the D in motion. So don't do that. She can't MAKE you do anything, particularly since you're not living together so you aren't there to submit to her button-pushing 24/7. To paraphrase Nancy Reagan: "Just DON'T do it."
I see you learning to control you reactions (though you just had a small set back), but I don’t see much indication that you are really differentiating. You are still very much enmeshed with your wife. Differentiation is a very difficult thing to do, IMO, because it essentially means to but boundaries on YOURSELF and your emotions, not on the other person. What I have found is that you need to come to terms with the fact that in the worst case, you will have to cut off your emotions and your relationship with your wife in order to preserve yourself and find happiness. This is not easy to do when you think your happiness is dependent on your spouse.
It is coming to terms with the possibility that your spouse may not be capable of becoming functional enough to give you the relationship you want. It is a lowering of your hopes and dreams (which may actually be a fantasy) and getting a little more real. I wonder whether your wife is feeling some of the pressure of this fantasy of yours. She does not have the self esteem to live under the limelight you wan t to shine on her.
I see your backtracking and slips into panic mode as your unresolved FOO issues coming back to haunt you. Your are still trying to discover yourself as much as your wife is trying to discover herself. I think you have a lot of unresolved fears that you really need to face head on before you can overcome the anxiety and panic attacks that hit you. Actually, in a way I think your wife is ahead of you here. She has come to realize her anger with those in her past who have harmed, shamed, controlled her. She seems to be getting in touch that anger and is frustrated that you are not acknowledging her.
But you have that same anger within you too. I don’t think you have really looked into that. If you had, you would be more knowledgeable of your fears, where they come from and why, and they would not take control of you as they did the other night. I wonder how your wife would react if she saw the same anger in you as she has within herself. She might feel validated. She might feel that she can relate to you and that you are on her team.
As it is, I see you trying to placate her, which is just a subtle way of telling her you do not believe what she is saying and that she is crazy. In this way, she might be feeling that you are playing a control game, trying to “one up” her and be the good guy. This is all a denial of her reality and in this light, her anger at you certainly makes sense.
My advice to you is to sit down and talk about her past and why she is mad at her family, the church, whomever. Then talk to her about your same experiences and get in touch with whatever anger you may have bottled up. Let her lead you in this. Then the two of you will be on one team, and the dragon of your common past will be one the other team. I think this could help her feel validated, feel a part of you, let her know that you truly understand what she is upset about, and that you are on her side. If you cannot see her point of view, and make it clear to her that you see her point of view, I would think that all attempts you make at reconciliation would seem hollow. I can see why she would question your true motives. I can see why she sees no other option than to divorce. Can you see that too?
Now, one other point about you won”t like what I’m going to say some of the pressure of this fantasy of yours. She does not have the self esteem to live under the limelight you wan t to shine on her.
I see your backtracking and slips into panic mode as your unresolved FOO issues coming back to haunt you. Your are still trying to discover yourself as much as your wife is trying to discover herself. I think you have a lot of unresolved fears that you really need to face head on before you can overcome the anxiety and panic attacks that hit you. Actually, in a way I think your wife is ahead of you here. She has come to realize her anger with those in her past who have harmed, shamed, controlled her. She seems to be getting in touch that anger and is frustrated that you are not acknowledging her.
But you have that same anger within you too. I don’t think you have really looked into that. If you had, you would be more knowledgeable of your fears, where they come from and why, and they would not take control of you as they did the other night. I wonder how your wife would react if she saw the same anger in you as she has within herself. She might feel validated. She might feel that she can relate to you and that you are on her team.
As it is, I see you trying to placate her, which is just a subtle way of telling her you do not believe what she is saying and that she is crazy. In this way, she might be feeling that you are playing a control game, trying to “one up” her and be the good guy. This is all a denial of her reality and in this light, her anger at you certainly makes sense.
My advice to you is to sit down and talk about her past and why she is mad at her family, the church, whomever. Then talk to her about your same experiences and get in touch with whatever anger you may have bottled up. Let her lead you in this. Then the two of you will be on one team, and the dragon of your common past will be one the other team. I think this could help her feel validated, feel a part of you, let her know that you truly understand what she is upset about, and that you are on her side. If you cannot see her point of view, and make it clear to her that you see her point of view, I would think that all attempts you make at reconciliation would seem hollow. I can see why she would question your true motives. I can see why she sees no other option than to divorce. Can you see that too?
Now, one other point about you. You won’t like what I’m going to say, but stay with me because I am saying this with your interests in mind. When you do your backtracking, your placating, your are not really trying to please her and make her happy. You are doing this to protect yourself. It is a very self centered and egotistical action that you do. She tells you directly that she does not like this part of you, yet you do it. Why? It is to protect you from her abandoning you, it is actually a form of manipulation and she knows it. This is what ticks her off. You are avoiding your responsibility to throw it onto her. Neither of you grew up under your own responsibility. You were told what to do and what to think by others. She is ticked off by it but you are still playing that game, except now you are trying to covertly manipulate her back into submission. There is a certain narcissistic element to that and she does not want to have anything to do with it.
Why do you hold on to this tactic? Are you afraid to change? That is understandable since it means you must find yourself and stand on your own feet, rather than leaning on others, but that is what you really want, and what I think she wants. So the more you placate, the angrier she gets. The more you become assertive and self confident, the more she feels relieved and protected. The missing element is your validation of her feelings.
I can even make the case that all the work you are doing on yourself right now could actually make things worse. Sure you need to learn what others are saying, but to your wife, it could all be seen as one more example of how you, and indirectly she, should follow the “rules” and control your behavior. I’m not sure that is the right message to send someone who is trying to rebel and get out from under some perceived “oppression.”
I agree with some of what you're saying, cobra-- it occurred to me when reading Rig's last post about his sitting and sobbing over the pain of his W thinking he is the bad guy. Saying that it is "egotistical and self-centered" of Rig to have this reaction, though essentially true, is probably not a very helpful way of phrasing it for you to get your message across, because phrasing it that way implies that his reaction is a weakness of character and something Rig should try to overcome and in fact should be able to overcome, kwim? When you say to someone "that's egotistical," it usually means you think they should take the focus off themselves and put it elsewhere and that will fix it. The way you put it will kick up someone's defenses. (It sounds like you're saying: "you're egotistical and self-centered, all you think about is yourself, you don't care about anyone else.")
It would be more helpful to say, "when you have a really strong reaction like that it's a sign that a wound of YOURS is being poked. Yes, you are empathetic about your W's suffering, and yes, it hurts that she has misjudged you, but the 'sobbing' reaction is a tipoff that you are suffering at a deep level and you need to look to yourself to see where that pain is coming from."
I do agree very much about the lack of differentiation. Here's my stuff on differentiation that I've quoted before
Quote: This is a list of the qualities of poorly differentiated and well differentiated people that a counselor gave me and my bf a couple of years ago. She was a therapist who followed the Schnarch philosophy. I suspect you’ll see yourself, your partner, former partners, or your parents here… maybe ALL of them.
Poorly differentiated people:
Pressure others (important others) to accommodate them regardless of that it costs. “If you love me, you will_______! I can’t survive if you don’t do what I want you to. I can’t survive if I do what YOU want.”
Give in (sell out) because of fear of rejection.
Have to leave relationships emotionally or physically in order to resist the pressure to conform (give up themselves).
Accuse others of trying to control them when others resist being controlled.
Monitor how much they disclose about themselves so as to please others or avoid conflict.
Have families where it’s true that “When Dad/Mom is unhappy, ain’t NOBODY happy!”
Have chronic anxiety that is easily stirred up and difficult to calm down.
Take things personally, are on the defensive much of the time. Are easily “hurt” by others, feel “guilty” for having their own needs, feelings, interests, or opinions that are not shared by their important other(S).
Feel responsible for others’ lives and happiness, and for solving their problems.
Feel rejected when important others disagree with them.
Need to control someone else’s behavior or feelings in order for them to manage themselves. In other words, they need someone to do X before they can do/feel Y.
Rely on external activities or substances that are often labeled “addictive” in order to manage their feelings.
The interesting thing about the qualities of good differentiation below is that you may very well react with surprise that it’s not only OKAY to be some of these ways, but it’s actually pretty healthy, for example not solving other people’s problems, or stay calm when a loved one is “losing it.”
Well differentiated people:
Value their self-respect above all else. This is another way of saying they have integrity or that they live by their values.
Manage their own feelings, calm themselves, and then choose how they respond to others rather than reacting out of anxiety.
Confront themselves instead of blaming others for their own circumstances or consequences of their own choices.
Recognize that "it's not about me" when someone near and dear "loses it" or becomes anxious. They don't personalize others' behavior.
Validate themselves rather than rely on others to do it for them all the time.
Refuse to sell themselves out of betray their values in order to maintain a relationship.
Refuse to project their own conflicts onto their partners, and refuse to allow others to project theirs onto them. They fight their own battles within themselves where the fight belongs.
Know the difference between themselves and others: what is me and what is not me.
Take responsibility for themselves. They do not take responsibility for others’ choices or consequences.
Have their feelings rather than their feelings having them.
Have deeply connected relationships, since they can tolerate closeness without undue anxiety about fusing or distancing.
Support the emotional growth of others toward greater differentiation by their refusal to participate in fused behaviors.
Rigley, this differentiation stuff could become your new manual... print it and post it on the bathroom mirror and read it every morning and every night.
I'm afraid that I don't have any specific advise to offer but it seems to me that in your marriage (your FOO too?) you were probably a lot like the kid who "punishes" his Mom for a lack of attention or being unduly strict by refusing to eat her cookies. I think you are on the right track because I can sense this sort of beam of light coming from you which consists of manliness, love and sexual desire but the batteries lose their power every time you have thoughts of "poor me" or petty resentment towards your wife. Do you want to eat cookies or do you want to punish the baker and go hungry?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Do you want to eat cookies or do you want to punish the baker and go hungry?
I do get the part about the beam of light coming from him and it dying down when he turns into "poor me." But I can't make the leap to the above analogy.
Quote: I do get the part about the beam of light coming from him and it dying down when he turns into "poor me." But I can't make the leap to the above analogy.
Sometimes it seems like Rig is saying "Poor me. I am a wimp." and sometimes it seems like he is saying "Poor me. My wife is so mean." but really he is saying the same thing whether he is feeling sorry for himself or feeling resentment towards his wife. He is like the kid who lost a fight with his mother and when she offers the olive branch of a plate of cookies, he chooses to punish her by not eating the cookies. Instead of standing up for himself like a man, he chooses to sulk like a baby. I know I confuse things with my mixed analogies but consider, in contrast, the boy who when chastened by his mother for bad behavior chooses to shape up and clean the garage and then say to his mother jokingly "I hope there will be some cookies in this for me.". This is a cr*p analogy because I don't mean to imply that Rig should obey his wife, just that he should either take his lumps like a man or really stand up for himself if he believes that he is in the right and in either case demand some delicious cookies too because he deserves them.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The other thought I had was that I am in awe of Rig's Wife. She must be very high drive indeed. She has young children, a new unstable career, unsupportive relatives, a prudish background, no new man lined up through adultery and still she is able to tell herself that she deserves a better sex life and she will do what is necessary to get one. Who wouldn't want to f*ck her? Rig better get his act together pronto.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
In the beginning, I heard more of "poor me I'm a wimp" from him, but recently, I'm hearing more "my wife is mean and that's HER issue because I'm not doing anything to CAUSE it." Edited to add: except insofar as his being wimpy PROVOKES her anger... but he's not the CAUSE of it.
I think the flaw in this
Quote: really stand up for himself if he believes that he is in the right and in either case demand some delicious cookies too because he deserves them.
is that right now with his W in this angry state, ANY engagement on his part will be twisted by her into blaming him for her state of mind. I think that his only recourse at the moment is to concentrate on differentiation. It's like the alcoholic thing again (I know I always bring that up, but it applies in lots of cases). If I spend all of my time telling my bf not to drink, that he's a drunk, etc., the he thinks the problem is ME not alcohol. But if I disengage myself from any discussions/encounters re alcohol then the problem will be exposed and the only two things in the room will be him and the booze. Then it will be clear that *I'M* not the problem. Especially if he figures this out when he wakes up on the front lawn.
So if Rig detaches himself using the guidelines of the differentiation post (e.g., it's okay to let people feel bad without trying to fix them, etc.) and she is STILL angry, she will have a harder time blaming him for her anger. She will probably still try to do it, but it won't stick. That doesn't mean he disappears from her life obviously, it just means that he refuses to ENGAGE by coming back at her with anything... apologies or demands or telling her what he "deserves." To me, this kind of engagement will just give her more excuses to feel bad and blame him for it. She needs to be alone (not physically, but emotionally) alone with her feelings/anger/rage so she can see that it all comes from her, kwim?
Quote: The other thought I had was that I am in awe of Rig's Wife. She must be very high drive indeed. She has young children, a new unstable career, unsupportive relatives, a prudish background, no new man lined up through adultery and still she is able to tell herself that she deserves a better sex life and she will do what is necessary to get one. Who wouldn't want to f*ck her? Rig better get his act together pronto.
Interesting POV... so if your H were angry all the time, raging at everyone (not depressed, but openly raging), and put you down constantly, and twisted what you said and accused you of undermining him and stated he wanted a D, then if he were HD, YOU'D want to fcuk him?
I'm sure she has a LOT to be angry about in her world, but does HD trump everything, even rude, disparaging, critical behavior?
NOT a rhetorical question... does it trump everything?
And not just because you agree with me.