Something may be happening

[hopefloats7]

Well, Sun, the beauty of it is that H cannot file for a D from me until Aug. of next year, because we are under a legal one year sep. before either of us can file for D now.

So, let's say he tells me he is through, period. Ok, well, then we'll have to ride this sep. out until Aug. because neither of us can file right now. But, yes, I'd be sad for sure if he said this is what he chooses.

To be honest, I've always said that come next summer if nothing were better at that point I'd have to be ok with a D if he filed, because I can't live in limbo forever. At least we've done this in baby steps...first we lived apart a year, then we got the leg. sep., and now we'll see what happens next.

[princess_nic]

Hi Hope,

As you probably remember, I did this with somewhat disastrous immediate results ("I can't be in a monogamous, committed R"), but I actually think it has worked out for the best. I feel better able to move ahead in my life and do stuff like paint the house w/o discussing it with H. Hey, he's gone--what's it to him (aside from his money, hee hee).

WRT to your point about sounding self-assured, as opposed to bitter, this is how I approached it:

I stayed calm and validated him. When he said that he didn't think he could commit, I said well then you have to respect that. Maybe it'll be forever, or maybe not. Who knows? When he told me that he couldn't tell me this face to face b/c I'd cry and then he wouldn't do what's right for him, I said, "If you can't commit to me, then being in a R with you is not good for me either." Incredibly, he said, "Oh! That's true." He'd never thought of it. I spoke in a calm, firm, friendly tone, and got a lot more info than I expected to.

I still may end up legally S in the spring, or D'd in a year, but right now, things are pretty good. I'm friendly, but NC unless it's in reply to him. Meantime, he seems to be trying to do nice things for me and also acts kind of shy around me, like a guy who likes a girl but doesn't want to tell her.

I hope you don't think I've gone on too long about myself, but I hope it will give you some perspective from someone whose sitch is still unresolved. But *I* feel a lot better.

Nicola

[job]

Hope,
Why do you have to give him an ultimatum at this time or any time for that matter? In crisis, he's going to take the easiest way out. People don't like to be put in a position to make a decision of this nature, especially when they are depressed or their brains are scrambled.

Hope, actions always speak louder than words. My advice, and you can take it or leave it, is that you not give him the ultimatium, but go dark. If you give him an ultimatum, he could very well become very defensive and we don't want him to react that way. We want him to think about what he's going to miss if you disappear totally from his life. Be very distant, mysterious and above all else, you cut the contact w/him, not the other way around. The less you contact him, the better. In fact, cease contact entirely as of Christmas. Stop being readily available to this man. You are separated, you must go on as if he's not going to reconcile w/you for the time being. He's got to realize the consequences of his actions and he can't if he's chatting up w/you.

I personally do not think an ultimatum in your situation will work w/this man. He's in too deep of a funk and if your moving to another location didn't shake him up, nothing will at this point. He may be feeling too down on himself and will say that he's not worthy of you and feel that you have to do what you've got to do because of what he's done. In some cases, the ultimatum will work because it's the right time. Hope, I could be reading your situation wrong, but I don't think I am.

It's time to turn the focus back on to you and your new life. Yes, you are in limbo, but that doesn't mean you can't live your life to the fullest. When August comes around and he's still hanging out on the limb, you can then choose to do what you feel is necessary to help you out of limbo. For now, go dark, do not contact him again and focus on the holiday, you and your family.

[angelica]

Hope - the way that I interpret what your friend said, is not to start issuing ultimatums, but to decide mentally what you aren't going to put up with. My h bolted after touch and goes all summer, and then peeked out of his tunnel and started trying to play touch and go from a safe distance. I just stopped playing, and then he took the hint, and now just emails VERY occasionally on business matters. Actually they are non-essential, but I deal with them briefly, and within a couple of days.

Maybe I am taking a risk, and he is interpreting it as me being cold, but I think them having the idea that you are always there to sort out their problems, could stop the process of moving forward. Don't know, but that is the way it seems.

Angelica

[always_14]

Hope....you know that I'm in essentially the same situation that you are with your H. Separated, H's in roughly the same stage, and we're both out and about, cutting the cord more and more.

So, it goes without saying that your thread recently--and the advice of your friend--really made me think.

At this point, I'm not sure. I tend to agree with Snodderly with my H. I think my H is feeling a lot of things. On one hand, I think he would just be relieved if I pushed him to a decision, and the best one would be "it's too hard to go back, I did too much"....and I think, with my H, he says these things to hear "no you didn't..." but still doesn't act on it. In my case, we have gone all the way, the papers are ready, I have asked several times to work together on this, and I get the silent treatment. Your H opted for legal separation.

Also, I'm a bit stubborn....I really am sick of making all the first shots, of pushign the hand and generally playing MLC games. Time to be a big boy....and I will go on living in the meantime. I have assessed what I am missing now, and how this "limbo" is holding me back. Not really. I'm sure one day I will get sick of it and ready to cut bait....but until then, going dark is good for me.

Does this mean they DO NOT want a D? I have no idea. But, I think that parts of their minds are too overwhelmed at the possibility that they can come back. I truly do think that they are "over" thinking that running away to something better is right. They are stuck. Which way to go? In my H, I sense, at times, he wants to hear me say "I want to work this out, please." He sometimes pushes me. He also knows that I would not bat an eye if he brought me papers. So, it's a risk.

I moved out and so did you. Our goal in the beginning was to live our life, and you even signed a legal document. So, go forth. You will wake up one day and feel, with all of your being, that saying "fish or cut bait" is the right thing. For now, if you're unsure, let it be. Continue living. Leave the door to be closed or opened again.

Go VERY dark. Cut yourself out of his life and him out of yours. I have done that and it's wonderful.

I agree with what your friend said....that maybe we are "allowing" them the limbo. But, I am also stubborn in not wanting a decision b/c I forced it. I want it to come from H. I want H to show the same fight and resolve that I have all this time, ON HIS OWN. Again, if I get sick of it, I am always free to leave.

I don't know the answers. All I know is that I would LOVE to issue an ultimatum, but I am sick of games, sick of being the one to initiate things, and even when we do come to a game plan for D, he drops the ball. So, for now, I am done even engaging with this, and have backed out altogether.

[hopefloats7]

Hi, snodderly,
I don't have to give an ultimatum; it was just that my friend, after talking to me at length, thought this was a good alternative to what I've been doing, which is nothing. In his opinion he honestly felt it would motivate H into dealing with the mess he's made and realizing he was going to seriously lose me for good unless he started to do something about this.

He may be feeling too down on himself and will say that he's not worthy of you and feel that you have to do what you've got to do because of what he's done.
Interestingly enough that is exactly how he does feel and he's said those things to me. I think he feels he deserves what comes next because he brought this all upon himself.

[hopefloats7]

always,

I've been thinking about all of this for the past day; even spoke to my friend again and he asked me if I'd talked to H yet. I told him no.
I tend to think that going dark is pretty much the same thing as if I had spoken to H and told him either do something now or I won't be contacting you unless it's an emergency. So I may as well just go dark and act like he chose the latter. He most likely would, anyhow. At least for right now that is probably what I will do. I hate having to do this now, before Christmas, but for my own sanity I suppose it's the best idea.
In doing this, I am sure that I won't be seeing any progress from H, because again no one is forcing him to do anything differently than he's doing...which is zero. He's just existing through his days, still unhappy, but at least not blaming his marriage anymore.
A time in the future may present itself where I DO say something about him needing to either start working on this or know that it's over for good. I suppose if the time is right, I'll know it and I'll say what needs to be said.
I truly feel your pain on always having to be the person to initiate something. Wet blankets these men are. So much passive behavior; I'm tired, too.

[job]

Hope and Always,
I realize that both of you are exhausted from the passive behavior. It's very frustrating to say the least. You both moved away from your respective spouses and are now attempting to blaze a new path in a new direction. It can be done during separation and while your spouses are playing the main role as Rip Van Winkle. I promise you both that if you go completely dark and do not initiate any contact, they will sit up and take notice at some point. It may not be tomorrow, next week or a couple of weeks, but they will. They will come sniffing around to see what you are up to. When they do, be friendly, but keep your conversations very short and do not share w/them what you are doing w/your lives. You see, right now, by having contact w/them, you are allowing them to continue to hold on to your apron strings and they don't have a reason to start peddling more through the crisis.

I realize the holidays are going to be stressful for you and your families, but no contact is the best way to go, especially w/this family holiday coming up. Of course, it's your decision as to what you want to do, but I feel you need to try going completely dark before you issue any ultimatums.

Always mentioned something that I wanted to zone in on. Yes, these mlcers would really love for us to do all of the work, i.e., separation and divorce and everything that goes w/it. They don't want to focus on these legal issues because it taxes their energy and brain power and of course, w/their brains being mush, they don't understand what is involved in the legal proceedings. That's another reason why it's important to allow them to make the decision and follow through initiating the divorce. Both of you ladies have been wonderful wives, supporters of your men, but this is one time, you need to step back and allow him to carry through on whatever he's going to do. Don't help him. If after your separation time period is up and you want to file, do it and go on from there. You will have done all you can do and can sleep at night for trying.

I wish both you the very best and I do sincerely hope that your holiday season will be a pleasant one, despite the aliens floating around.

[aid]

Hope,
I just got caught up on the last couple of days. First let me say, my H said to me a few times that too much damage has been done and that it's easier to start over with someone new. Yet, he always returned (where we'll end up, who knows).

I'm not a big fan of ultimatums. I think that it will force him into a decision before he's ready to make one. And it could backfire by having him decide to work on teh M when he's not ready to do so. Or it can go in the opposite direction of forcing him into D when he's not ready for that either.

HOWEVER, if YOU have had enough and are ready to move forward, that's a different story. If you want to file for D because it's time for YOU, then do it. But you would be doign it for you, not to knock him over the head. If he gets a wake up call in the process of you doing that, then so be it and deal with it then. But the thought of forcing a decisino out of him makes me very nervous.

I agree with Snodderly in that going dark is a better way to go. That way, you're not forcing anything, but he will have time to think about the fact that you're moving on with your life.

At the end of the day, you have to listen to yoru gut. That's one lesson I've learned with regard to saying certain things or doign certain things with my H. It all came down to my gut.

Your H thinks it will be easier to start over. Wait unti he realizes that he will nto find happiness sweeping it all under the rug and losing his W.

Hang in there.

[kaydeekay]

Hope:

I really don't have any advice to offer other than that I totally agree with snodderly. Right now I'm having no contact with H and I'm going to follow what snodderly suggested. I've allowed my H to come and go as he wants for the past two years. If I don't allow him to deal with this crisis who knows how long this will last.

I know this will be difficult because there are times when I want to contact H and be friendly with him again. But I know this not help my sitch.

Happy Holidays!