The break-down of all of it began with loss of respect... first for myself, and then for him. __________________________________________________________________________
Yes - when I understood this was when I could heal from the divorce. On my good days i know that this is what will make or break this marriage too. Mo - this is why your current understandings are so important. It isn't about 2x per week, 2x per month nor anything so simple as that, the elusive thing is that it begins with respect and respect begets all kinds of dividends - desire, compromise, partnership, enough distance to make things interesting. Good for you - getting there is half the battle, staying there is well, the other 80% - yes, I know it adds up to more than 100%. It is just an illustration of how hard it is. Many times we delude ourselves into thinking we "love" ourselves or respect ourselves or are differentiated from our partner and it is just another face of trying to please someone (partner, therapist, bb friends, what we think we should feel). Practicing non-attachment (in the Bhuddist sense) closely relates to these concepts. Good for you Mo!
Quote: It's the loss of the loyalty/trust of a marriage, that to me, hurt so much. And TO ME that meant more than the marriage OR the sex itself. And that is completely independent of how I feel about myself. I would feel, again, the same way if something were to happen to my best friend... and I am neither married to her, nor do I have sex with her.
That's interesting because I was actually thinking that maybe what you meant was I would miss the having a "best friend" aspect of marriage more than the sex. That isn't true for me simply because I've never been the type of person who has a "best friend". My "friendshipness" is dispersed into a lot of different size and shape buckets. I think this is probably due to the fact that I have three sisters to whom I am close so I have never been lacking for "playmates".
However, of course you were right to imply that if I was seeking validation I would get more validation from a man saying "I want to marry you." then from a man saying "I want to f*ck you.". The set of "Men I Would Want to Marry" is a subset of the set of "Men I Would Want to F*ck" so from my POV it would be more validating to be in anyone's "Women I Would Like to Marry" set because it is a more exclusive club. The only difference between me and you might be that "Men I Would Like to Marry" is a true subset of "Men I Would Like to F*ck". For me "Men To Whom I Would Like To Be Married but Not Like to F*ck" is the empty set and the sum total of my desire to belong to the corresponding set for any man is zero.
But the real point I should have been making is that me seeking validation through sex hasn't been the problem in my marriage for a while. I would say that the "problem" with my marriage is that my H will not validate me no matter where I seek validation. I mean there are many things about marriage that I value beyond sex but it has been my experience that if I simply try to reduce my need for validation through sex by putting my need for validation into another category, I end up not getting validation OR value in that category either. It doesn't matter if the category is sex, physical affection, quality time, words of appreciation, financial security etc.etc. . Anywhere I try to seek validation I don't get it and the more I try to seek it the less validation AND value I get in that category. Therefore, why would I be more jealous of another woman because she was married to my H not "just" having sex? She'll just end up not getting validated in the way that she wants it the most-LOL.
The reason why recent sex with my H has been so great is not because I finally stopped trying to get validation through sex but because I finally gave up on trying to get validation at all. Therefore, I am in a situation where I might as well be "damned for a sinner" because I'll be "damned for a saint" no matter what. I might as well go for all the value I want from sex because I have nothing to lose in terms of validation otherwise. Sex with my husband is like sex with the stranger in the elevator (except better because the stranger knows how my body/mind works) because I fear no consequences of my behavior because I seek no validation from the relationship.
Of course, this is a very hard state of mind to maintain. For instance, this evening I'm feeling fused because I'm afraid my H is going to quit his job. The "financial security" category is hard for me to get my fusion out of because it effects my kids and it's pretty much impossible not to be fused with your kids. So, I'm basically feeling angry at my H on the behalf of my kids.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I was thinking about the phrase "zipless f*ck" so I searched around some Erica Jong on the internet and came across the following passage which I think might be a bit of validating literary therapy for anyone who is or ever has been a HDW:
"Our marriage went from bad to worse. Brian stopped f*cking me. I would beg and plead and ask what was wrong with me. I began to hate myself, to feel ugly, unloved, bodily odoriferous- all the classic symptoms of the unf*cked wife; I began to have fantasies of zipless f*cks with doormen, derelicts, countermen at the West End Bar, graduate students, even (God help me!) professors."
from "Fear of Flying"
*************************************
Anyhow, what I was thinking about "zipless f*cks" was that what makes for sucky sex is any kind of repression or self-consciousness. For instance, I suppose that there are some women who would never even have a thought like "Ram it in me baby" while they were having sex. There are some women who would think it but feel bad about thinking it. There are some women who would think it, feel okay with the thought but feel bad about actually saying it. There are some women who would think it, feel okay with the thought, feel okay with the concept of actually saying it but not feel totally comfortable saying it in the context in which they are actually f*cking. There are some women who would go ahead and do it anyway. That used to be me. Now I would go ahead and do it without even thinking about it and that's what makes a f*ck zipless.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Sex with my husband is like sex with the stranger in the elevator (except better because the stranger knows how my body/mind works) because I fear no consequences of my behavior because I seek no validation from the relationship.
This was exactly my point, dear. Okay, so we ARE on the same page, and no, I was no inferring that you need validation from sex, but that you need validation from your H at all... it just tends to play itself out in your sex arguments... because there are two huge weak spots in you and your H knows them both. Sex and financial security. (Mine fears are manifested in a different way, but your above statement of sex in the elevator with a stranger holds true for me as it does for you... just for slightly different reasons).
Now hang on... seriously. Let's look at this. You got yourself to a place of personal security, right? You just had the best sex of your marriage (quoting you) last weekend. You cruise along this week, being differentiated, probably in a dog-gone good mood, or at least not seeking validation in any overt way... probably in your 'can-do, eternal optimist' type way... but even if you weren't riding real high on the wave... you are contained and 'un-fused.'
But. You are sexually satisfied right now, so him pulling out his 'sex' card isn't going to work with you so well. So what does he do? He arrives home, after not being able to stand your 'un-fusedness' for one more day (cause that makes HIM feel uncomfortable), and what does he do? He nails you in your other weak spot. BAM. Fusion city. Now H is feeling all comfy cozy, because he has your attention again, and you are set adrift again in your fear, trying to work your way back to 'unfused center.'
He's been doing this to you for as long as you've been posting here, honey.
Now, in my very Type 5ish kind of way, I would say to you... "ahem. Mo. YOU are a very hard worker. You are self-motivated, and highly capable, extremely intelligent, and have all that you need to support yourself, if it came to it. You would never allow yourself or your kids to get thrown out on the street... you'd do whatever you had to do to successfully thrive in the world. And you KNOW this about yourself."
But... your H's modis operendi has been to hit you here because you don't necessarily WANT to have to go this route. (And who does, honestly?) But you could. Let this fuel your 'unfusion.' It doesn't necessarily rid you of the fear, but it does assist you in counter-attacking his ploy. Look him dead in the eye and say, "honey, I'm so sorry you are going through this. Do whatever it is you need to do."
And then let him.
You will still fret and feel all vulnerable because there is a very good chance he WILL quit his job. And he'll keep bringing it up, just to test you.
But go back to what you know. Go back to your basics. YOU will be fine, no matter what he does. No, it is not optimal. But he's done this to you before, and you've survived it. You didn't like it, it was tense for you, but you made it. And both of your kids are in a different place now... almost adults. Sure you worry for them, but it is a bit different than having kids in diapers. Plus, you know if push really came to shove, you have your sisters. Not that any of us every want to have to fall back on that, but it IS there.
So... he could go marry someone else, he could go have sex with someone else... but if this guy quits his job... you come undone. Why?
I understand all the reasons you gave, but I also do not see it as an unsurmountable problem for you... which means, it must be hitting a core fear within you. Okay. I get that. Talk yourself through it. Breathe. Get yourself, on this topic, to the place you have in others... so that you can say to him, and mean it: "fine. Do whatever you have to do."
When you can find a process of self-soothing on this issue, he's just going to come undone, I think. I don't know what he'll do, then, and maybe you don't either, and that is part of your fear as well... but boy, how great for you it would be.
I happen to be going through the same thing at the moment, just so you know. Confronting my greatest fears. Just the other night I got to my 'dark night of the soul mooment.' Again. Jesus. But. It was a quiet moment, and one I was able to look at with levity, instead of panic. I don't like it, I'd rather not have to do this... but in a bizarre sense, I'm finding myself and the faith in myself that has ALWAYS eluded me. Not there yet. But I've taken my first few steps, and I'm just astounded that I'm doing it. I give me mental high-fives everyday, simply because I am no longer paralyzed in my own fear... and even when I lock up... I'm still kind to myself.
You recognize this process. You've done it before, with other things. And more than likely, once you get this one, another one will crop up. I've found that, too, and what a dam pisser THAT is. But like I've said... practice makes perfect. And I have to practice just like you and everyone else.
___________________________________________________________ But the real point I should have been making is that me seeking validation through sex hasn't been the problem in my marriage for a while. I would say that the "problem" with my marriage is that my H will not validate me no matter where I seek validation. I mean there are many things about marriage that I value beyond sex but it has been my experience that if I simply try to reduce my need for validation through sex by putting my need for validation into another category, I end up not getting validation OR value in that category either. It doesn't matter if the category is sex, physical affection, quality time, words of appreciation, financial security etc.etc. . Anywhere I try to seek validation I don't get it and the more I try to seek it the less validation AND value I get in that category. Therefore, why would I be more jealous of another woman because she was married to my H not "just" having sex? She'll just end up not getting validated in the way that she wants it the most-LOL.
The reason why recent sex with my H has been so great is not because I finally stopped trying to get validation through sex but because I finally gave up on trying to get validation at all. Therefore, I am in a situation where I might as well be "damned for a sinner" because I'll be "damned for a saint" no matter what. I might as well go for all the value I want from sex because I have nothing to lose in terms of validation otherwise. Sex with my husband is like sex with the stranger in the elevator (except better because the stranger knows how my body/mind works) because I fear no consequences of my behavior because I seek no validation from the relationship. ___________________________________________________________
This really spoke to me. I realized that I have also reached the point of seeking no validation from the R especially not through sex. However, I am getting no sex and no validation either. To Corri's point - H doesn't really have another spot in which to hit me (maybe parenting issues but not even that really) so the Mexican standoff over sex continues to see whose need is greater - mine for validation through sex or his to ???? (not be put upon to provide validation, I guess). The one and only recent attempt at sex had very little juice in it - partly cause the kids interrupted but partly also because H is the stranger in the elevator. In my case, the stranger might have the advantage for quality of sex because at least he would be truly hot for me in the moment. Of course, H has "real" reasons for not having sex which he knows hits my other sore spot of not being a "demanding shrew" - if I point out that there are zillions of ways to have sexual activity without requiring the use of his hip then he can stand on the soapbox of "gosh honey, I'm in pain, don't you appreciate my pain?"
The area where you and I part is that I am still angry/fused about the no validation thing. I do believe that there is room in a well functioning M for genuine validation given with only the intention of expressing one's gratitude/pleaure in their partner or R and not with the intention of medicating the other person's anxiety. I have this with my best gf - she and I often mention how nice the other looks, how kind or smart she is, what a good Mom, good person, how accomplished etc... We don't do it because we expect it of the other, we don't do it because one of us has this draining neediness, we do it because we genuinely believe those things and feel motivated to share them. H doesn't feel this motivation. Once in a while he will get me a card or play a song for me (One Hot Mama is an example) that "says something he has trouble saying" - WTF? how hard is it to say - "Hey wifey, I think you're hot. Those cards and songs are real scarce.
Well Mo, I'm glad you can let go of the need for validation and not have the simmering anger that I have had lately. I realize that the whole job thing is scary but you really can't stop your H - he will quit or he won't. Nothing you do will make him stay on the job until finding another but what you say/do could lead him to be more likely to quit. Don't you think? Knowing that makes your only alternative to get out of your own way - you can say things like "Mmmm, that is a tough situation. Let me know what you decide." FWIW - ex-H had a lot of personality conflicts on the job and job hopped quite a bit, meanwhile he professed that he didn't want me to work, he wanted me to be home with the kids - it was crazymaking!
Quote: I understand all the reasons you gave, but I also do not see it as an unsurmountable problem for you... which means, it must be hitting a core fear within you. Okay. I get that. Talk yourself through it. Breathe. Get yourself, on this topic, to the place you have in others... so that you can say to him, and mean it: "fine. Do whatever you have to do."
This is what I have been doing. I understand that this is what I need to do. I've been thinking about the issue and I think that I am really d*mn angry at myself because I have failed to set strong boundaries on this issue in the past and that is why I am upset. It's like I imagine myself talking to my daughter and saying "I'm sorry that I can't afford to send you to a top university but I really felt like cr*p because I wasn't getting laid so I spent a lot of time/money/effort trying to please your father and stroke his ego needs instead of doing the things careerwise that I know that I am capable of doing that would have led to me being able to support you in your goals on my own.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I give me mental high-fives everyday, simply because I am no longer paralyzed in my own fear... and even when I lock up... I'm still kind to myself.