New All Time Low

[honeypot]

You are very lucky that your H has this side to him, mine really doesn't. He has repeatedly answered "naked" when asked what sorts of things I could wear that he would find sexy. He is a very low maintenance guy, not into nice clothes, rugged would be a nice way of saying I suppose.

I'm jealous over the red heels scenario and proud of you for buying the shoes! We have one of those shoe stores around here so maybe I'll look there. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm looking for shoes that have some sex appeal but are still functional. Klutz that I am, I cannot be expected to carry a baby around in high heels, as much as I like the look. Then I'd be hobbling around like IHJ, trying to convince people that crutches are the next hot thing from VS.

[InherJourney]

Well along with the crutches I had this big black boot, which appealed to my son because it was Darth Vader-like. Several times when H and I were out, some guy would shout to us, " Carry her," to which my H replied, " She wouldn't like it," which depressed me until I came up with a good fantasy for myself.

Deep sigh.

[karen1]

Ahhhh that is why red heels are properly referred to as "come fcuk me red heels."

Karen

[Cobra]

Mojo,

Your description of your and your H’s background sounds like there were not good role models for either of you two to emulate. That just helps to confirm (at least in my mind) why your H acts as he does. I still see his stuff as trauma/attachment issue based, full of fusion, etc. Probably lots of shame somewhere in there too.

"You don't even worry about me out there do you?". The subtext clearly being "and therefore you don't love me."….. So what I said to my H was "I don't worry about you because I expect that you will do what you need to do to keep yourself safe.". Which, in the case of my H's job, means sometimes having to assert himself with his coworkers and his boss without losing his temper to the extent that he needs to quit.

I see nothing wrong in your reply, nor does it seem that anyone else does either, sine no one commented on this. However I can see how your H would not hear it like that. If we assume that he always feels like the outsider, like an abandoned kid with low self esteem and little to no sense of self worth, then your complimentary statement may not have much to build on. To someone more secure, your statement would be taken as an affirmation of that confidence. But your H cannot relate in that way since he has no confidence to relate to (or so I am guessing).

Maybe a better response for him would be something like “I don’t worry about your safety because I know that you are extremely good and competent at your job, and the security of that knowledge simply puts any thoughts of worry out of my mind.” The message I am trying to convey is one of making the presumption that he is competent, ignoring his implication that he is incompetent, and then boosting his esteem by telling him how much he protects you through that competence, thereby acknowledging that he really is a man’s man.

(sidenote: my children semi-jokingly tell me that they enjoy hanging out with my mother because it is very relaxing to be around someone who is "pure evil".)

You’ll have to explain this one to me. Why is it they like hanging around “pure evil” and how exactly does that make them relaxed? I’m not getting this.

I did have a loving Type 7 maternal grandmother. She was a hard-working on the Union line gorgeous in appearance with a high sex drive Rosie the Riveter, twice-divorced, Kool smoking, beer from the can drinking, owns her own house in a tough neighborhood in Detroit and fights the hoodlum who tries to snatch her purse when she's 75 years old, left her second husband because he objected to her spending her own money at the racetrack. Basically a pretty tough broad but she cuddled and babied me because I was her pet. The advice she gave me and my sister when she once caught us looking at a Playgirl magazine was "Those boys are alright, but you girls take care of yourselves.". So I have internalized her as sort of my own personal Judge Judy who is telling me to, as you put it, "put down my own stakes" and stop waiting for some man to do it for me.

Hmmm….yeah, I guess I can see that message from your grandmother, but I also get the message that your grandmother was very insecure, tried to pump herself up at the expense of men, and could have done so out of some FOO based anger toward a man somewhere down the line.

I am not sure that is the same as “putting down your own stake.” To me, this means not waiting on someone else to stay on your path or your journey. What I get from your description of your grandmother is not necessarily a devotion to a goal or purpose, but a subtle anger and frustration toward men. Such anger can be completely aimless, but just as consuming. I see that you have the purpose and goal in what you do career-wise, but you’ve also picked up the anger-toward-men part and then hidden it.

Your grandmother nurtured you, so you naturally admired her. But if she had that antagonism toward men, it also makes sense that you would side with her, seeing men as a source of pain and frustration, maybe even inferior to women in some way? I am sure she was smart enough not to make any overt, blatantly sexist comments about men in front of you, but I wonder of the vibes still came through, and that you are sending those same type of vibes to your H now?

Back to your H:
He is turned on by being with a woman who has basically thrown up her hands and given him up as a hopeless case or to be more precise, he is turned on by the behavior/vibe that I manifest when I feel that way. Though, perhaps I am not being completely accurate when I say this either because my vibe would be more like "I give up on you. You are a hopeless case, yet I will continue working on this marriage as an exercise in personal growth if nothing else.".

I can see that his actions seem to send this message to you, but I wonder if he is really trying to say something different. In light of his poor modeling as a child, could it be that his childhood was filled with fighting and squabbling, with parents who only tried to get his/her way to the exclusion of the needs of the kids? If so (like in my family) then the only time your H ever had any attention was when he was being fussed at. To a child even negative attention is better than no attention at all. Kids gets used to this, so that when they get positive attention (which requires a good self of self in order for that attention to be well received), they feel very uncomfortable.

So could it be that your fussing at your H to the point of giving up on him, triggers the same feelings in him when he was a kid and at least getting some kind of attention, attention that he can relate to?

Regarding your appearance:
He said "It is depressing to me to see my wife in shoes like that. It makes me feel like I am poor."

I can understand this. Remember, he needs affirmation and validation. That is why men have trophy wives. That is why the attention of a beautiful woman makes them feel so good (right Chrome?) Having a good looking woman on your arm makes you the envy of other men. Having a poorly dressed, unkempt woman makes you the laughing stock. I’m glad you bought the shoes. Now do your part to put together the rest of the package.

My response was "It is very unfair of you to complain miserably to me one day about how much you hate your job and then complain to me about not spending enough money on shoes. If you want more freedom to get a lower paying job, we need to lower our standard of living. If you want me to dress expensively that is doing the opposite.".

I’m not sure what you hoped to accomplish with this statement other than to put him on the spot and tick him off. Validating his esteem in the way I think he needs might be along the lines of “You are a highly capable man and one with more potential than you even realize. A man like you does not deserve to be seen with a poorly dressed woman. I intend to make myself worthy of you. Now go do your part to make me proud of you.”

His response was along the lines of "It makes me hate my job more if I feel like I'm poor so I really want you to buy new shoes.".

This is a VERY hard statement for a man to make. He really had to dig deep and beat down his own ego to make it. I think he does this WAY too much and needs to stop the self deprecation. But he does it because I think that HE thinks it is a way to placate and please you. Remember, you are the alpha, he is the beta. He is simply submitting to you with a statement like this. At the same time I can see him slipping into a self pity role, hoping you will rescue him and make him feel better.

I said something to him along the lines of "I just hope that you are aware that I would probably wear worn-down Ugg shoes even if I was a mult-millionaire. I just don't think about shoes.".

This statement denies his wants. He was honest, open and vulnerable to you in making his statement. You basically told him that you really don’t care, that you want what you want and will do what you will do, and that his wishes do not matter to you. I don’t think that is going to endear you to him.

Find a way to get him to read Dieda, whatever that might be. He needs to change his outlook on life and on what men are all about.

[MJontheMend]

Maybe a better response for him would be something like “I don’t worry about your safety because I know that you are extremely good and competent at your job, and the security of that knowledge simply puts any thoughts of worry out of my mind.” The message I am trying to convey is one of making the presumption that he is competent, ignoring his implication that he is incompetent, and then boosting his esteem by telling him how much he protects you through that competence, thereby acknowledging that he really is a man’s man.

I absolutely agree that what you said I should say would be a better way for me to bolster my H's ego. The problem is that I'm not sure that I should be trying to bolster his ego because A) It's kind of condescending and "Mom"-like and B) Part of me believes that it isn't really possible to lend somebody else ego strength through validation. I think that you touched on this once when you were writing about parenting. Children gain ego strength through mastery of skill and self and I guess I believe that adults are the same, except that adults are more pathetically locked into self-limiting self images. So, I guess I've talked (typed) myself back into agreeing with you. The purpose of validation would be to "lend" my H the imagination or "vision" of himself in a role he has not yet mastered.

You’ll have to explain this one to me. Why is it they like hanging around “pure evil” and how exactly does that make them relaxed? I’m not getting this.

My kids have very different personalities but they both love dark or twisted humor. They are both great fans of "Arrested Development" and "The Office". They find it relaxing to be around my mother because she puts a very thin shiny obvious layer of good social behavior over basically a very bad attitude and amuses the h*ck out of my kids. For instance, she'll say things like "I think it is very nice of you to display those ceramic snowmen that N(my FIL's wife) made.". Thereby completely disparaging the taste of N and conveying that since I am her daughter, I can't possibly "like" the snowmen and must be displaying them as an act of kindness.

I didn't appreciate having "Elizabeth Taylor" as a mother but my kids get a kick out of having her as a grandmother. She is also a good source of "over the top" validation for them because she will say things to my daughter like "You are a classic English beauty." (my children constantly mimic her saying this)and then tell her where she ought to shop for clothes. When my son was getting poor grades, she might say something like "You are probably just bored in those classes because you are so intelligent. I know what that is like.".

Recently, she suggested that she might move in with my H and I since we are nearing empty nest. There is no way this will happen. If I lived alone with my H and my mother, I would have to have access to some psychiatric drug not yet invented in order to maintain my sanity.


****

I don't think that my grandmother was antagonistic towards men. I would say that she liked men but didn't think that it was wise to depend on them too much for financial or emotional support. When she said

"Those boys are alright, but you girls take care of yourselves."

she was smiling and chuckling, as if remembering her youth dancing with the boys at the USO . She was validating our sexual interest in men as natural but cautioning us that we shouldn't let that interfere with such things as getting an education or a good job. She had a boyfriend for much of our youth, he lived across the river in Canada and only spoke Russian and Polish. He was kind of sexy for an old guy because he kind of looked like a good-natured Cold War spy. When I was a young teenager, my Grandmother would sometimes pretend like I was her daughter when she flirted with men we might encounter when we were out together. She would wink at me when she did this and it was all great fun. The sad thing is that it was a man who was the tragedy of her life. Her blue-eyed baby boy (my half-uncle) was a heroin addict and a total loser in many other ways. She couldn't cut him loose, though everybody told her she ought to, and he really drained her resources in her old age.

I probably gave a false impression of her by comparing her to Judge Judy which really wasn't apt.

So could it be that your fussing at your H to the point of giving up on him, triggers the same feelings in him when he was a kid and at least getting some kind of attention, attention that he can relate to?

It is completely obvious to me that my H would rather get negative attention than no attention at all. He has said that the thing that he hates most of all is being ignored. I would even go so far as to say that the fact that he "picks" on me is a sign of his love because he feels like it is better to give me negative attention than no attention. He doesn't get that I would really rather be "ignored" much of the time because I experience "being ignored" as "being free to do my own thing and be myself". He doesn't understand that when I don't fuss over him or worry it is because I am trying to respect or encourage his independence.

I can understand this. Remember, he needs affirmation and validation. That is why men have trophy wives. That is why the attention of a beautiful woman makes them feel so good (right Chrome?) Having a good looking woman on your arm makes you the envy of other men. Having a poorly dressed, unkempt woman makes you the laughing stock. I’m glad you bought the shoes. Now do your part to put together the rest of the package.

I do get this. Let me share a story from my marriage. This happened several years ago, pre-BB. My H had a new job that he didn't like. His workplace was having an Xmas party. I got all dolled up to go to the party and looked quite nice. I was friendly to all his co-workers and boss and was pretty much the perfect supportive spouse. My H was obviously appreciative and we had a fun evening and even danced quite a bit. When we got home, I (ever the optimisist) expected the good vibe to continue on into the bedroom. No such luck. At the time, I was pretty much 50/50 hurt and confused. I felt like I had done my best, but my best wasn't good enough. I think the reason why I was confused was I was working on the premise that I think you are trying to sell which is roughly- Good Wife Bolsters Husband's Ego Then Man Exhibits Newly Bolstered Ego in Magnificent Display of Sexual Behavior. Unfortunately, I have come to believe that it doesn't work like that. The problem is that a man who "wants/needs" a trophy wife is interested in bolstering his ego strength in relation to other men. There is no need to actually f*ck a trophy wife in order to boost ego strength in this way. You simply need to "own" the trophy wife and the other men will assume that you are f*cking it. The man who is concerned with impressing other men wants a wife that other men would want to f*ck, not necessarily a wife that he would want to f*ck himself.

Back in the day when I actually used to go to social events with men/boys who actually wanted to f*ck me, these men/boys would behave differently. To the extent that their ego interest or desire was focused on getting me in bed, they would be concerned with impressing me and not give a cr*p what their buddies or co-workers thought. This sort of male behavior can be obnoxious or obvious and therefore not a great turn-on but at least the motivation is clear. For instance, a guy who wanted to impress/f*ck me might brag about some accomplishment and get angry or annoyed with another male who challenged his assertion in front of me. The funny thing is I used to kind of complain to my female friends when I was young that it seemed like only unbelievably macho men were attracted to me. I thought I gave off some sort of vibe that attracted obnoxious men. Perhaps, the truth of the matter is that that is how men behave when they are strongly attracted to women and unconcerned with their behavior in relation to other men. Perhaps, I should have married my co-worker who was constantly inappropriately grabbing my *ss on the job or one of the two guys who were best friends yet straight-forwardly competed for my attention by following me around offering to perform Acts of Service and, as I learned from a mutual friend, referred to me as "Hot Jenny" when not in my presence. What was my point?

I believe that my H, like most men, is interested in f*cking me when he is interested in impressing me, not when he is interested in impressing other men. However, the two things are related due to the tendency of men to compete amongst themselves for women. If I make myself attractive and I do it purely in the interest of boosting my H's ego strength it would make me more lovable but not more f*ckable because I am increasing both value and validation. If I make myself more attractive purely in the interest of my own ego strength than I make myself more f*ckable but less lovable. The red shoes sex with my H was hot because (although I didn't do this consciously) I struck a good balance between the two. I made him pay for the shoes which made me look hot and I only put the shoes on at his request after he initiated sex. He had to ask himself the question "Do I deserve to f*ck a woman in red heels?" and answer himself in the affirmative. In an encounter we had later that weekend, we were interrupted by our son knocking on the door and my H lost his mojo. As he attempted to get back on track, he said aloud to himself "I am an adult and I can do what I want.". I smiled and said "It's legal in all 50 states.". He said "What's legal?" and I said "It's legal to f*ck your wife in all 50 states.". Anyways, we proceeded to do some things that we agreed were probably not legal in Alabama and all was well.

I said something to him along the lines of "I just hope that you are aware that I would probably wear worn-down Ugg shoes even if I was a mult-millionaire. I just don't think about shoes.".

This statement denies his wants. He was honest, open and vulnerable to you in making his statement. You basically told him that you really don’t care, that you want what you want and will do what you will do, and that his wishes do not matter to you. I don’t think that is going to endear you to him.

No. I was just trying to be honest. My H recognized this and countered with "Well, if you were multi-millionaire maybe I would find your footwear eccentric but...". I really wasn't trying to antagonize him and I did go out shoe shopping. Besides my comments were DEFINITELY meant as more of a complaint about his pathetic "I hate my job" cry to be rescued than a complaint about his manly desire for a woman with hot shoes. I'm okay with a guy wanting to see me in hot shoes as long as he doesn't expect me to carry him on my hip at the same time. That's asking too much.

[MJontheMend]

Another depressing story from my marriage to illustrate my point vis-a-vis male ego and female appearance. Four monthes into my marriage, I was 7 monthes pregnant. It was blazing hot summer and I was big and bloated and I had an ugly hormonal rash on my face. I was walking down the street with my H. Some immature jerk yelled "You're fat!" out of a car at me. The fact of the matter was I wasn't really fat, I was pregnant and I had made an ill-conceived effort to look attractive by wearing a sundress that probably emphasized this reality. Now, I'm not sure what I would have preferred my H to do in this situation but what he did do, choose to walk further away from me, was pretty much the worst choice he could have made(This should be evident since I remember this event clearly though it took place 18 years ago ). Okay, I do know what I would have preferred. He should have either A) Given me a hug and said "You look beautiful to me." (I imagine a man who is Alpha in the way of Hairdog might do this) or B) Chased down the car and dragged the guy out of it and beaten the cr*p out of him (like I imagine a man who is Alpha in the way of BlackFoot might) or C) some combination of A & B which would have made him my perfect Alpha man.

On a more positive note, I should add that I believe that my H has made some changes and his behavior would more resemble that of my ideal if this event were to recur.

[karen1]

Ahhh MJ, I just hated that preggo story for you. Pregnancy is such a vulnerable time. I get your point that your H really needs (a) for you to maintain some sort of status quo level of attractiveness/perfection to be interested, (b) that has to be validated by others also thinking that you meet a certain status quo but that all of that doesn't equate to him permitting himself to engage you sexually. It must be frustrating to be expected to meet some standard that would seem related to his sexual needs but is, in fact, only indirectly related. You seem to be understanding more and more how to solve this conundrum.

Karen

[Cobra]

Mojo,

I understand the importance of differentiation, needing to self validate and self soothe, but isn’t the objective of breaking through the enmeshment and the codependence to get to a point of interdependence? And to an outsider, just how does codependence and interdependence differ? In both cases don’t spouses engage with each other, often in very intertwined ways? Don’t couples in both cases get into each other’s stuff and push each other’s buttons?

We know how codependence and interdependence differ, that one has a healthy respect and understanding of boundaries while the other does not, that one seeks validation from the partner and in the other self validation is the rule. But even in the healthiest, purest interdependent couple, I bet that one spouse would be quite upset if the other stopped praising and validating the other. Getting that praise from your spouse makes you feel good, enhances the bond and all that good stuff.

You know this quite well, but it still confuses me why you seem “hung up” on the idea that validating your H is somehow philosophically, or logically incorrect. If he likes it and it helps your marriage, then why not do it. He is not ever going to be healthy and functional. I don’t think you believe that will ever happen. So if you can strike a healthy compromise, and you can live with that (you get enough sex, validations, etc.), and you believe it is realistically all you can expect out of him (at least for today) then be happy with it.

Sometimes I get the feeling the two of you are in a competition to see who can convince himself s/he is the most pitiful while at the same time appearing not to be pitiful to the other so as to be one up on that other (don’t ask me to explain that any further, I could barely get that idea into a sentence).

I would even go so far as to say that the fact that he "picks" on me is a sign of his love because he feels like it is better to give me negative attention than no attention. He doesn't get that I would really rather be "ignored" much of the time because I experience "being ignored" as "being free to do my own thing and be myself". He doesn't understand that when I don't fuss over him or worry it is because I am trying to respect or encourage his independence.

Why does this have to be so hard? If he likes to be fussed over, then fuss over him. If you like to be left alone, then ask him to do leave you alone. Be honest about why you each want what you want, but also let the other know that your wants do not mean either of you are abandoning the other. Isn’t this really a form of projection? You each do to the other what you want done to yourself. Nothing wrong with that. Just say so and stop fighting about it.

As for your H liking to see you dressed up and not ratty looking, well you can go into all sorts of reason why that is denigrating and discriminatory toward women, that it shows a lack of respect and an objectification of women, blah, blah, blah… It all sounds great to the women’s libers, but in the end, if that is what you H likes, then that is what he likes. Follow his lead and stop questioning and challenging him on it or he may get the idea you don’t want to follow him or be with him. Like Dieda says, if a woman acts like this, then a man needs to think whether he should find another woman.

You want him to be masculine and assertive, more of a man’s man, but it still seems like you want him to be YOUR vision of a man’s man, not his. I’m not saying he has a vision of how he should be. In fact, I’m not sure he really knows where he stands on being a man. But that seems to be part of his problem. He needs to learn about him self and what he wants. But the other part is that you should not make it any harder than necessary for him to find his way. Be hard and firm on the boundaries, be let him have the initiative to decide what type of man he wants to be. Then you decide whether you want to stay with him.

I think he feels manipulated and controlled to an extent. That is his problem to solve for sure, but since he does not seem fully capable of resolving it on his own, and his sour state is making your life miserable, then his problem is still your problem. So I think some of the comments you made do have a negative effect on him. To most people those comments would be irrelevant, but to him they seem to have an affect. He is very much in need of validation, so he reads into everything you say.

I guess I am not saying that you should do one thing or another, but instead just be careful of those times when your comments could be interpreted by him to be a constraint on his actions because of his need to do what you think is right and what is necessary to make you happy. I still think you should get Dieda’s book and make him read it at gunpoint. Then he might feel happy that you are really fussing over him!

[MJontheMend]

It must be frustrating to be expected to meet some standard that would seem related to his sexual needs but is, in fact, only indirectly related. You seem to be understanding more and more how to solve this conundrum.

Actually, I've found the FlyLady site to be helpful. As you might know her basic philosophy is that if you love yourself you will take care of yourself. There has been an interesting batch of e-mails from her site on the topic of H's reactions to women improving themselves in various ways by doing a better job of taking care of themselves. The point being that if you have a critical spouse and you start making efforts towards improving yourself either they will respond well and become less critical or they will react poorly and continue to criticize or even criticize more. When that happens you will know that YOU are not the problem. It may be the case that the condition of my shoes was a sign that I wasn't taking care of myself and therefore a valid complaint but can the same be said about my H's critical remarks about my overplucked eyebrows or the fact that I served reheated beans rather than "fresh from the can" with the brats a few nights ago (he actually got angry and said I was just "dialing it in".)? If my H is inclined to take every variation from perfection that I manifest as a personal slight, then I'm afraid that he is going to be perpetually slighted because perfection is not my goal.

[MJontheMend]

I understand the importance of differentiation, needing to self validate and self soothe, but isn’t the objective of breaking through the enmeshment and the codependence to get to a point of interdependence? And to an outsider, just how does codependence and interdependence differ? In both cases don’t spouses engage with each other, often in very intertwined ways? Don’t couples in both cases get into each other’s stuff and push each other’s buttons?

An interesting learning experience for me along these lines is the fact that I am in a business partnership with my Type 4 sister. What this experience has taught me is that it would probably be a good idea for couples to have pre-nuptial agreements for the same reason that it is good to have clearly drawn out partnership agreements. My sister and I "push each other's buttons" quite frequently in the course of running the business but we also resolve issues very quickly because we are in complete agreement if either of us no longer finds the partnership to be beneficial we will dissolve it in accordance with our partnership contract. Therefore, if my sister says something like "I am sick of living in Michigan. I think I might want to move back to the West Coast." it doesn't freak me out at all. I don't have to adjust my plans because I've already planned for the contingency of her choosing to leave the business. The problem with marriage is that it is horribly restrictive because it is a poorly defined contract. So couples can and do argue endlessly about it. When you create boundaries within a marriage you improve it because you make a better defined contract.

Sometimes I get the feeling the two of you are in a competition to see who can convince himself s/he is the most pitiful while at the same time appearing not to be pitiful to the other so as to be one up on that other (don’t ask me to explain that any further, I could barely get that idea into a sentence).

LOL- I do know what you mean. We compete at "under-performing" as well as "over-performing". That is probably because I think it is wrong to give positive attention to someone who is "down" because IMO it validates non-productive downward-cycle behavior and my H believes that it is wrong to give positive attention to someone who is "up" because they don't need it and it will just make them even more annoyingly arrogant (sigh).

Be honest about why you each want what you want, but also let the other know that your wants do not mean either of you are abandoning the other. Isn’t this really a form of projection? You each do to the other what you want done to yourself. Nothing wrong with that. Just say so and stop fighting about it.

I have been making some inroads this way. For instance, I bought my H a complete outfit of clothes (I rarely buy him clothes) for his birthday thereby validating his desire to look dapper directly.

As for your H liking to see you dressed up and not ratty looking, well you can go into all sorts of reason why that is denigrating and discriminatory toward women, that it shows a lack of respect and an objectification of women, blah, blah, blah… It all sounds great to the women’s libers, but in the end, if that is what you H likes, then that is what he likes. Follow his lead and stop questioning and challenging him on it or he may get the idea you don’t want to follow him or be with him. Like Dieda says, if a woman acts like this, then a man needs to think whether he should find another woman.

AARGH! Why are you lumping me in with some stereotypical group of "women's libbers"? I have very little objection to being objectified. It is quite possible that I was wearing a form fitting french cut t-shirt that emphasizes my DDs at the moment that my H chose to focus on my shoes. Please remember also that my H is the man who asked me to lose some weight and then complained that my breasts were smaller after I lost the weight. He is also the man who told me that my breasts were not attractive to him any longer because he had seen them too many times. That is why I am in absolute agreement that my H should find another woman if my appearance is not to his liking. I will be happy to attend their wedding because I will be interested to ask her how she attaches and detaches all her interchangable parts.

You want him to be masculine and assertive, more of a man’s man, but it still seems like you want him to be YOUR vision of a man’s man, not his. I’m not saying he has a vision of how he should be. In fact, I’m not sure he really knows where he stands on being a man. But that seems to be part of his problem. He needs to learn about him self and what he wants. But the other part is that you should not make it any harder than necessary for him to find his way. Be hard and firm on the boundaries, be let him have the initiative to decide what type of man he wants to be. Then you decide whether you want to stay with him.

I absolutely agree with this. I am well aware of the fact that I will never magically transform my H into "Hank". I would also add that I understand that he might decide that I'm not the woman for him when he decides what type of man he wants to be and I am actually pretty cool with that. I would rather see him become more of a man with some other woman then be stuck as less of one with me.

I guess I am not saying that you should do one thing or another, but instead just be careful of those times when your comments could be interpreted by him to be a constraint on his actions because of his need to do what you think is right and what is necessary to make you happy.

I understand that this would be in everybody's best interest. If I understand you correctly what you are trying to convey is that I should try to go along with my husband's plan, no matter how much I honestly disagree with him or feel oppressed by his pickiness, because by stating his preferences and having them met, he will become more of the man that he wants to be, living the life that he wants to live, feeling more drive in all ways. If at that point, I decide that I don't enjoy the lifestyle as defined by his form of manliness, I will be free to leave without feeling guilty because he will be able to take care of himself.