Quote: Then you could team up with a small independent publisher like I hope to shortly become to produce a book entitled "How to Make Money as an Internet Performance Artist" and collect royalties.
I think you could sell hundreds of thousands of books like these in a series. You could corner the market with Type 4s who are out there trying to find their "life's work."
Quote: I did do one counseling session with a DB coach and she told me about "one-downmanship" as opposed to "one-upmanship." Instead of responding to H's negativity with a way to make things better (the way healthy, rational people would look at it), agree with how bad things are and even say they are worse. This worked a few times with my H. And when I turned it on myself and showed my own negativity and low-self esteem moments, he did an about face and marched me right back to happy land. I guess he felt I didn't belong in his land.
This does work for me sometimes but if I do it too "fake" then it's like I'm being condescending or making fun of his negativity and if I do it too "real" then there are two of us down in the dumps. I think it works because it's kind of like when a toddler hits his head on the coffee table, he'll stop crying if you hit the coffee table and say "Bad coffee table!!" or the trick that I used to use when my kids whined in the grocery store which was to freak them out by whining back at them "Waaaah, I want gourmet coffee. Give me your penny so I can buy some gourmet coffee. Waaaah!".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
By sadistic I meant that he clearly does not want to be cheered up--or even have you try--but you do it anyway.
However, the more I thought about it I now view it as a sort of gambling addiction. You know how they say that gamblers become hooked from the first payoff and thereafter try to recreate that feeling? It's like you have erratic success in cheering him up but it must pay off good at times because you keep trying for another windfall.
Or.....are you afraid of NOT playing this game..? Do you really view it as your "job" to help him get out of these moods? Secretly maybe? Just thinkin out loud..
Well shoot it's not you huh. I thought for sure I had run across you again and was shocked! I almost emailed the seller but then came to my senses and thought What would I write?? "Are you Jenny from the I can't get laid forum?"
As far as hiring me, that is hysterical. I actually did work in sales, prior to having babies, but didn't like it the farther up the ladder I went, for a variety of reasons.
The convo with MrH. Hmmm, I don't really remember that conversation but I can tell you that he'd never imply that I don't know how to interact in the corporate world. I was most likely giving him advice on how to be a better Man (I know..I know..shutup already, blackfoot) and he must have told me to knock it off. I am *much* more assertive than he is and I forever try to push him in a direction that would pay off career-wise but doesn't feel authentic to him at all. Hell, I tried to ask him if he wanted oatmeal for breakfast this morning and it turned into a 5 minute absolutely pulling-out-my-hair-in-frustration moment. He couldn't say Yes I want oatmeal cause that would be being pushy but he wouldn't say a definitive No since he really did want oatmeal. What he wants is for me to 'force' things on him like his mother did (does) and I don't play that. In this respect, Rigley reminds me sooooo much of him.
At any rate, I still say that "oh" or "hmmm" is the way to go with your H. Otherwise, he will continue to use you to haul himself out of his bad mood, in effect stepping on your head to get himself out of the pit of mud that he's thrown himself into. Your man is crazy but he's sexy too, so get to work.
Quote: I just sometimes like to pretend like I think your H is sexy as a random act of kindness. Merry Christmas IHJ's H !!!
I have to say that recently I have been quite attracted to H ( without resorting to fantasy, and not because of his buff bod). I am proud of him for the work he's doing in therapy; rather than covering up the anxieties and insecurities with that defensive bravado, he is willing to take a peek within. He's more connected...less avoidant. And less angry/irritable. Shades of his old self are coming back to me, before the defensive storm hit. A major plus---he is working on this marriage...I can feel it.
Lil, I know you would get this... I feel my core/essence has gotten to him; he gets me; he's not running away.
Now, he is certainly not Mr. Analytic, but he's made a small shift, and I have noticed. He helps to balance us out by keeping me unstuck and making everyday life run fluidly.
It's my 20th anniversay this week ( need to start my own thread on this) so I am getting sentimental. We were supposed to go away but this darn ankle of mine is messing things up (instead, we've made a few local plans). He's even gotten me a sexy VS outfit in purple, my favorite color!
So,I won't stretch to say he's sexy, but the thing is, I am feeling true desire for him! And what a gift that is....
I wonder if part of your H’s problem is in not really knowing what it means to be a man. You can tell him all you want, but until he can “get it” from a man’s POV, it just doesn’t resonate, kwim? Maybe he should read (or you should insist he read) Dieda’s “Way of the superior Man.” That perspective resonated with me in a way I had not been exposed to in my childhood. So the bigger picture of what it meant to be your own man could never totally congeal for me, even though I heard all the pieces before. Your H really seems to be lost and in his own identity crisis.
For that matter, I think you are still trying to find your identity, especially in terms of a marriage, but since your H cannot find himself and plant his position in the ground, you are always trying to gauge yourself against a constantly changing standard. I think you know this and see the answer so close to your grasp that you keep in the “dance” knowing that in a way, the answer to your problems is really quite close.
But then, maybe that is why the allure of divorcing gives some security for you. Jumping out on your own would allow you to set your own posts in the ground and stop the vacillating. Whether good or bad, at least you can set a bearing and move forward. Trying to get your H to set that foundation seems to be what s driving the both of you nuts. But he is the one who has to do that.
In this way I can see what HP is wondering – whether in some way you are being sadistic toward your H. I don’t think you are, but it seems like that because he is drifting and your attempts to set him in the ground can seem sadistic. But I see this as his responsibility, not yours, so I wouldn’t really blame you. Its just that you are the one who is aware of this need to know oneself, not him. Why don’t you pick up the book and ask him to read it?
Quote: By sadistic I meant that he clearly does not want to be cheered up--or even have you try--but you do it anyway
Well, I would say that he does and he doesn't want me to try and cheer him up. If I make like Cobra, I would say this is because he had a cold, conservative father who would have been repulsed by any display of pathetic negativity from his son and a overly-clingy, warm mother who would have said "What's wrong?" and proceeded to fuss at the first sign of unhappiness. Really, my personality type is somewhere in between but I feel like I am being pushed towards these opposite poles because, IMO, my H wants to be loved by someone like his mother but he wants to have sex with someone like his father (except with large breasts-LOL) because he doesn't respect his mother because she's pretty much the most fused person around. Therefore, he is used to the high-level of attention that he got from his mother but on some level he knows that it is "bad" for him. So he pushes me until he gets what he thinks he needs attention-wise but then he rejects me for giving it to him and drives me freaking insane. If I "act" like his father, cold, self-involved and basically b*tchy, I get sex and respect from him but I just end up accelerating the kind of behavior from him that will turn me back into "Mommy". When our relationship was at it's worst (in terms of me feeling most cr*ppy) my thought was "I have got to get out of this relationship because you are turning me into your mother.". Of course, my problem is my inability to maintain my own strong center from which I can't be pushed into either the "Mommy" or the "Daddy" role. So, for instance, my thought that I should have just plunked down a pint of whiskey and a handful of Lotto tickets and said "Good Luck!" in response to his I-hate-my-job breakdown was almost certainly a good one because it's more like me and less like what he thinks he needs from me. Another "better" behavior I have used in response to his "tantrums" is to simply be nice but not concerned. For instance, I might bring him a bowl of soup and good-naturedly say "You are pathetic.". Pretty much the way in which I am different from either of his parents is that I am generally good-humored and humorous ( I am like his father because I am sort of a rugged individualist and I am like his mother because I am sort of warm and sentimental. This is probably because I model myself after my father who was my only functional parent and he was a conservative, gentle man -kind of a cross between Hairdog and Lou). So this is probably the strong center to which I should glue myself when he tries to drag me down into fusion.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: In this way I can see what HP is wondering – whether in some way you are being sadistic toward your H. I don’t think you are, but it seems like that because he is drifting and your attempts to set him in the ground can seem sadistic. But I see this as his responsibility, not yours, so I wouldn’t really blame you. Its just that you are the one who is aware of this need to know oneself, not him. Why don’t you pick up the book and ask him to read it?
Well, the obvious reason why I won't give him a book like that and ask him to read it is
Quote: You can tell him all you want, but until he can “get it” from a man’s POV, it just doesn’t resonate, kwim?
. If "I" give him the book, it will instantly be labeled "chick stuff" and dismissed by him in much the same way that if I were to suggest a sexual position, he would instantly label it as "chick stuff" even if surveys show that it is the position most preferred by 80% of men-LOL. Perhaps, I could mail 3 copies of the book anonymously to my FIL and enclose a note that says, "I thought these might be of interest to you and your sons.". Then my FIL and my H could read the books, heal their manly relationship and all things will tend in my favor.
Actually, one thing that has been a positive lately is the fact that my H's relationship with his father is improving. His father dumped his mother for another woman shortly after we were married after a long terrible marriage of the cold, rather than heated, variety. My FIL is now married to a third woman and a few weeks ago my H told me that he witnessed his father kiss his wife on the cheek when he walked in the door. My H said that he had never seen anything ever on this level of affection directed towards his mother during his entire childhood. His father would walk in the door after work and his mother would give him a hug and his father would just stand there like a stick. The sad thing is that my MIL is still totally fused to this man 18 years after their divorce. This is my model for "she who I will not become". That is why although I find the idea of divorce alluring because it would be a sort of "easy out" for me in many ways, I find the idea of "differentiation" even more alluring, so I keep trying to figure out how to float my own little boat in the crowded bumpy sea.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I should add that it is very much the case that my H's issues with his job have to do with his way of relating to other men. For instance, he was annoyed with one of his co-workers for, as my H put it, "half-*ssing" a job and thereby putting extra work on my H's plate. So my H wrote him a note. The coworker wrote back to him and started his reply "Don't get your Irish up..". When my H related this to me, I couldn't help myself, I just started cracking up along the lines of "'Don't get your Irish up' that's a good one. Why didn't I think of that? ha,ha,ha.". The weird thing is that my H doesn't really understand that he is coming off as ill-tempered and combatative much of the time because he is feeling "put upon" or defensive when he behaves in that manner.
His job does have a certain element of danger. So when he was down in his dumps one of the things he said to me was along the lines of "You don't even worry about me out there do you?". The subtext clearly being "and therefore you don't love me.". The fact of the matter is I don't worry too much about him getting hurt on his job but it doesn't have anything to do with "love". I'm just not much of a worrier to begin with and I guess I just don't feel like it's "right" most of the time to worry about other adults out doing their adult things even if they're the primary other adult in your life and even if what they're doing is kind of dangerous. So what I said to my H was "I don't worry about you because I expect that you will do what you need to do to keep yourself safe.". Which, in the case of my H's job, means sometimes having to assert himself with his coworkers and his boss without losing his temper to the extent that he needs to quit. His job is "manly" to the extent that he could definitely lose his temper to the point of, for instance, swearing in an ill-tempered fashion without being in any danger of getting fired. Such behavior will simply result in him being persistently "ribbed" about his red hair.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
1) My father is the only parent of my marriage who grew up with his own father. My H's parent's fathers both died when his parents were babies and my mother's father was absent because her parent's marriage was annulled before she was born. All three of them grew up with step-fathers.
2) Though my low-functioning Type 7 Elizabeth Taylor-at-her-worst mother was not much of a parent to me (sidenote: my children semi-jokingly tell me that they enjoy hanging out with my mother because it is very relaxing to be around someone who is "pure evil".), I did have a loving Type 7 maternal grandmother. She was a hard-working on the Union line gorgeous in appearance with a high sex drive Rosie the Riveter, twice-divorced, Kool smoking, beer from the can drinking, owns her own house in a tough neighborhood in Detroit and fights the hoodlum who tries to snatch her purse when she's 75 years old, left her second husband because he objected to her spending her own money at the racetrack. Basically a pretty tough broad but she cuddled and babied me because I was her pet. The advice she gave me and my sister when she once caught us looking at a Playgirl magazine was "Those boys are alright, but you girls take care of yourselves.". So I have internalized her as sort of my own personal Judge Judy who is telling me to, as you put it, "put down my own stakes" and stop waiting for some man to do it for me.
Thinking about her also brings to mind what HP said about me being a sort of emotional gambler. My Type 7 grandmother was a gambler, my Type 7 mother was a shopaholic and I am a woman who has a degree in mathematics with a concentration in actuarial science and I make my living by trading used and rare books which really is a profession that requires you to be a sort of cool-headed gambler. I have to make very fast decisions which can only partially be based on logic. My relationships with my competition are also sort of like you might imagine the relationship to be between very civilized racetrack regulars. That is also why I tend towards wanting to engage in activities such as trading options or breeding dahlias. I find activities that blend luck and skill to be very high "flow" activities for me.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
