From the way W behaves, she does not want more love, passion or partnership. I don’t believe she is content either. Am I too trusty and familiar? Perhaps that’s it. She wants a variety of friends, and since MF is out of the picture, she doesn’t have that anymore. I don’t think she wants me to suffer either. In fact, I have told her nothing of my suffering – at least not for several months – maybe even years.
I can’t demand that she spend time alone with me, and I certainly can’t tell her that our marriage needs it. Her reaction would be exactly as Glo posted.
I think there may be an element of fear of abandonment in my W’s thoughts. She’s said on more than one occasion that she’s gained the strength to be able to carry on without me if something ever happened to me. If there were some way I could make her see that she doesn’t have to abandon me first…
But that’s pure speculation. I don’t know for sure if this is part of it, and even if I did, there’s nothing I can do about it.
Glo,
Quoting Glo: She apparently is tired and feels so many demands that she can't handle yours on top of everything.
Why do you need to express this all the time? Obviously, the results are BAD. I don't like the undercurrent I'm hearing here, Andy.
At the risk of sounding defensive, I do not express this all the time. In fact the only expression of my frustration is the occasional sleepless night. I explain it away as work related stress, and also family related stress. I have acknowledged to her that I understand her stress, and in no way do I belittle it. When I mentioned (on my thread and with tongue firmly planted in cheek) ALL the 'time' she has when they are in school, I was not implying that she didn’t deserve it.
I’ll be blunt too, Glo.
Quoting Glo: It's not really for you to decide how much she can handle. The woman has several kids, including a special needs kid, and you seem to have this idea that she gets to loll around at home while they are in school.
I have several kids too. Including a special needs kid. I don’t loll around the office while they are in school, and I don’t loll around in the evening when they come back from school.
If there’s something I resent, it’s the implication that I’m some kind of male chauvenist couch potato.
Having said that, I also acknowledge the fact that W has done the brunt of the kid stuff over the past 16 years. I have nothing but admiration for this, and I’ve told her so on more occasions than I can remember.
I also recall W complaining that she got no respect. That was wake-up call for me that my respect for her wasn’t being communicated. One of the nicest things I ever heard my W say was, “At least papa respects me.”
I’ve always done whatever she asks of me. What I’ve come to realize (duh!) is that I have to actively search for things that need to be done. So I feed the kids, do the dishes, search for doggie-doo, and sit down and try to think of anything else that needs to be done when I get home from work.
I don’t expect her to jump for joy at this, and I don’t expect her to understand the additional stress that this puts me under or show me any respect for it. I hope she does respect me, but if it was so hard for me to make her feel respected, I can hardly expect her to go out of her way to make me feel respected.
Quoting Glo: You feel resentful and it's coming through LOUD AND CLEAR. You're complaining because you work all day and then have to help with the dishes, etc. And then you're complaining that you don't get the loving attention that you (naturally) want from your wife.
She hears this as yet another demand on her, instead of something that replenishes the both of you. And since the resentment is coming through cyberland, I'm certain it comes through in real life.
Instead of focusing on how much she's not appreciating you, you need to MODEL the appreciation you crave. It may sound "unfair" and backwards, but we're ALL in the same boat here! We all had to be the ones who modeled positive change to bring our erring spouses back.
I hope you’re wrong, Glo. Firstly because I don’t feel resentful. It may come across that way, but my feelings are more about frustration. Frustration because I’m doing my best to be on the same team. I want to be part of the parenting team and the houseworking team. I want to share the frustrations so as to make things easier for her. I’d like to be able to express my frustration but I can’t. If I were to do so, W would react the same way you do. That I feel my frustrations are more important than hers. So while she can vent out loud, I’m forced to do it here.
Quoting Glo: Your special needs child may be tipping the balance here. Your image of him clinging to you "like a dirty shirt" was particularly disturbing.
Believe me when I tell you that I don’t like it either. Also that I don’t always feel that way. It’s just that sometimes I need a little space too. And going to work doesn’t do it. I get frustrated sometimes. Other times, I hug him, wrestle and box with him.
Quoting Glo: You need to find some OTHER way of replenishing your spirit without making demands on your wife and feeding your resentment. Because the way you're headed now it sounds to me as if you are getting ready to justify leaving your wife with those kids!
I’ll never do that, Glo. Chalk it up to blowing off steam. But I ain’t goin’ nowhere.
Quoting Glo: The fact that your W did call and invite you out shows she does hear you. If you then complain about all the effort it took to get her to do this, maybe you should look at your own expectations.
I hope you can hear this in the spirit it's offered. It is easier for those of us with older kids to concentrate on reconciliation. But you are adding a burden to your W by viewing the kids as competition. I don't say you shouldn't VENT here---you should.
But from what I'm hearing you are making noises about not going through this anymore, and it is my belief that leaving your family would cause *more* hurt and damage. Do the impossible and focus on the good, and I believe your efforts will be noticed and bring you what you desire!
You’re right, Glo. She does hear me, and I should be grateful for that.
And I do take what you said in the spirit of helpfulness. Thank you.
The “noises” I’m making are just frustrated grunts. I focus on the positive more than I let on. But when I talk about not going through this anymore, I’m thinking more in terms of just giving up hope that things’ll get better.
Quoting Jamesjohn: Im sure that your wife does feel the resentment you hold over the way that things are now. I know that you keep saying that you are "accepting" the situation at hand, I'm not convinced that you truly have.
I don’t think I’ve said that I’m accepting the sit. If I said that, then I’ve misspoken. What I’m trying to say is that I’m trying to accept it.
Quoting lisakate32: it's interesting that so many people can read the same things and get different senses of it. i never felt from reading andy's thread that he was resentful towards his wife. i get the sense that you (andy) love your wife with all your heart, do everything you can think of and are capable of to do your share and want the fun and intimacy back in your relationship. i get the feeling you are frustrated with your w's lack of enthusiasm and affection. you both have such full plates. you are trying to make the marriage a priority, your w just can't right now.
I guess that pretty much sums up the way I feel.
Quoting Jamesjohn: Andy,
Everyday, pick out one thing to "appreciate out loud" to your wife.
Don't assume that she knows you appreciate the things she does, tell her.
Don't take for granted the things that she does, "expecting" her to do this things.
Don't say that you've already tried this and it didn't work, or that you know it's not going to work.
Well, that's good, Andy, if you're using this place to vent and not sending "resentful" vibes to your W. I never implied you wanted to be a "couch potato"--in fact, you did express resentment of the fact you worked and helped out, but obviously your ultimate goal is some fun time with her, not down time in front of the tv! The problem stems not only from your needs, which I specified as *natural*---but from your expectations as to how your wife should interact with you.
I can actually relate to both of you! I would never be able to handle raising that amount of kids. I have one---wanted two, but since my H wasn't 100% behind that, I backed off. That's the way it is with life. Some of our dearest wishes can *never* come true, because we are dedicated to the one we chose to share our life with.
But even with only one child, I know what it's like when raising a young kid. It can feel like the two of you are work horses, each pulling to the utmost your load. You are harnessed in, and not *facing* each other. To you, unharnessing and romping through the field together seems not only natural but refreshing.
Right or wrong, your W doesn't feel the same way. She wants to unharness and go chew some oats in her own quiet stall.
It's a shame---you want to be her comfort, but she views your demands as yet another chore. You have a gift you want to share with her---yourself---but she views it as an obligation, instead of the gift it should be.
Those of us who went through our H's withdrawal from OW can completely understand that feeling of rejection and frustration.
I'm not calling you a chauvenist any more than I'm calling your wife a brat. (I reserve the right to say I found MYSELF married to a chauvenist, and I've been a total brat myself at times!! But both conditions are curable.)
For better or for worse, this is all your wife can handle at this time. Fairness is irrelevant; hopefully, some time in the future she'll kick in in ways that will surprise you. I have a feeling she will. But now is the time to surprise her, and back off. She is overwhelmed and needs the gift of space.
I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to vent here, but I became worried that the venting was backfiring instead of relieving. Obviously, only you know the whole story and can determine what resonates from our feedback.
Andy, I would like to let you know that I did follow your post from time to time to keep up and/or learn something from many people who replied to your post back and forth. Some of your dilemmas related to your wife are somewhat similar to my own situation also. I get to the point where I’m sick and tired of trying anything new. I felt the same way about 180+180. I did too much that my wife didn’t even see that 180, but 360 instead.
I hardly posted anything nowadays because it only made me feel frustrated, sad, angry, and sometimes hopeless. For some reasons, if I stayed away from it all, I found myself at peace and with less stress even though things between me and my wife did not move an inch, but did not get worse either.
andy, i think i thought of something! you've posted to us about how that guy is out of the picture, right?
you know that that please me no end.
it occurred to me that she misses his companionship. can we use that recovery formula. If they were good friends for 12 months then she will need time to get over that, right?
you know that i want him to stay under house arrest forever or else find another ff to hang out with when he gets to leave the house.
i know you are going to say that you don't mind if she has other gender friends BUT i think that his continued absence is for the good of your relationship w her.
Just watch, Andy. She likes to inline skate, yes? Can you make plans to go do that but not invite her? If that guy stays out of the picture long enough she just might want to go w you. You'll have established the pattern of going skating and it won't seem that you're trying to fill that spot that the mf filled for her.
she needs companionship. just trying to line you up to be the one when she takes her nose out of her book.
i know you are going to say that you don't mind if she has other gender friends BUT i think that his continued absence is for the good of your relationship w her.
Just watch, Andy. She likes to inline skate, yes? Can you make plans to go do that but not invite her? If that guy stays out of the picture long enough she just might want to go w you. You'll have established the pattern of going skating and it won't seem that you're trying to fill that spot that the mf filled for her.
she needs companionship. just trying to line you up to be the one when she takes her nose out of her book.
Right on, lily! I like this!!!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
Quoting Glo: Well, that's good, Andy, if you're using this place to vent and not sending "resentful" vibes to your W. I never implied you wanted to be a "couch potato"--in fact, you did express resentment of the fact you worked and helped out, but obviously your ultimate goal is some fun time with her, not down time in front of the tv!
The problem stems not only from your needs, which I specified as *natural*---but from your expectations as to how your wife should interact with you
I know you didn’t want to imply that I’m a couch potato, Glow. And I wasn’t taking exception to what you said. I did notice the way you mentioned *natural*
I try to keep my expectations low, too. It’s ironic that this was much easier two years ago when W REALLY avoided me. The very fact that she doesn’t anymore gives me hope that some of my dearest wishes can come true. It’s a fine line between hope and expectations sometimes.
Quoting Glo: To you, unharnessing and romping through the field together seems not only natural but refreshing.
Right or wrong, your W doesn't feel the same way. She wants to unharness and go chew some oats in her own quiet stall.
That’s not quite accurate. She wants to go out with friends. When MF was in the picture (more on that later for Lily), we (yes… WE) were quite active. One fight I have within myself is that it was OK for us to go out every Saturday evening with MF and his W. We’d go to movies with them. We’d go to flea markets with them. But now that it’s no longer possible, we can’t do anything together! W’s position is that we have family responsibilities that prevent us from doing things together. Yes, we went to a movie Sunday, but W was very reticent.
Does that sound resentful? You bet it does. Am I resentful? I’m trying not to be, and even more important, I can’t ask W why she feels that it was OK to leave the kids alone then but not now because… Well, how can you ask that without sounding resentful?
Quoting Glo: It's a shame---you want to be her comfort, but she views your demands as yet another chore. You have a gift you want to share with her---yourself---but she views it as an obligation, instead of the gift it should be.
Those of us who went through our H's withdrawal from OW can completely understand that feeling of rejection and frustration.
I'm not calling you a chauvenist any more than I'm calling your wife a brat. (I reserve the right to say I found MYSELF married to a chauvenist, and I've been a total brat myself at times!! But both conditions are curable.)
For better or for worse, this is all your wife can handle at this time. Fairness is irrelevant; hopefully, some time in the future she'll kick in in ways that will surprise you. I have a feeling she will. But now is the time to surprise her, and back off. She is overwhelmed and needs the gift of space.
I’ve been backing off for two years now, Glow. It may not sound like it from my posts, but as I mentioned yesterday, I sometimes don’t even want to go home because all that backing off is hard sometimes. I still want to share myself with her and vice versa. I think you’re right. I think someday she’ll allow that.
But in the mean time, I have no intention of pulling a 360.
Hi LAN. You and I go back a long way. Hang in there, bud!
Lily,
I know you’re pleased about MF’s departure. Of course she misses his companionship, and of course she needs time to get over that. But I don’t feel that I can replace that companionship. It’s not like buying a new puppy to replace the one that was hit by a car. And she’d most certainly balk if she thought I was trying to take advantage. Perhaps that’s what she thinks I’m doing when I ask her out. But I’d rather be on her team.
I’m not going to back off to the extent that I won’t ask her to do things with me. But I can’t try to line myself up as a replacement for MF either. If she wants my friendship, it’s up to her to accept it. It’s there for the taking.
Yeah, JJ. It sounds great, but I've tried to weasle my way into her activities before, and that's exactly how she perceived it. Weaseling.
I don't know whom to address my response to, so it's probably safest to post to you. Then I won't blow up and regret anything that I say.
I'm a little pi**ed off that people are seeing you as having unreasonable "demands" here. First off, I don't see you as demanding anything. Secondly, you are dealing with as much as your W is in regards to the kids. Maybe that wasn't so when they weren't in school all day or when you were on the road more, but I think it is now. You have work to contend with too.
I think your W is being very selfish in being so concerned with her needs all the time. Jeez, the past is the past. You need companionship and a normal male/female relationship. Not sure if all of these posters know how long you have been at this. I know some do.
Perhaps I am taking this too personally. I've been where you are and it just doesn't feel too good!
I know that you go out of your way to not show how you are feeling to your W or to put demands on her. What I'm seeing here is pure frustration on your part and a lot of sadness.
One thing I do agree with a couple of posters on, it that MF is a problem! He needs to stay out of the picture. I think that anytime a friend (either male or female) begins to replace a spouse as a confident or companion, the marriage suffers bigtime.
I have no advice, just support. (((((((((((ANS))))))))))))
I, for one, don't see Andy as having unreasonable demands, or as being selfish.
On the other hand, I don't see his wife as having unreasonable demands, or being selfish, either.
What I see here are two people who are stuck. Two people who are in a relationship that ain't quite as good as it could be.
Neither of them are right, and neither of them are wrong.
Neither of them need sympathy, they both need solutions.
Hopefully, Andy doesn't really view everything here as "advice", but maybe "different perspectives" on his situation.
I, for one, hate to see him feel "powerless" over his situation, waiting for his wife to come around.
Hopefully, if we keep throwing around enough options here, ANS will find some THINGS (not THING) that will help him lead himself and his wife to a better relationship, a better marriage, and a more fulfilling life for them both.
JMHO!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
