180+180 = 360

[Jamesjohn]

Amen KAW!

One of the ingredients for my "sauce" that worked for me is really kind of harsh, and might not be for everybody, but is what worked, and still works, for me.

It was the ability to be ready, willing, and able to walk away from the relationship at anytime, while still making it my "choice" to stay.

For me, in my sitch, this attitude was, and is, a matter of self-preservation, born out of desperation.

Harsh? Maybe. Is it for everybody? Doubt it. It did, however, take a hell of a lot of pressure off of both myself and my wife, helped me to take things less personally, and helped me to be stronger on my own, which helped to draw my wife back to me.

[ANS]

Rachael,

In your case, it's simply a matter of time. The lightbulb thing won't happen any more than it did for me. And you've really nailed it wrt Adrian's perception needing to catch up with reality.

It didn't take weeks for this to happen to my W. It didn't take months. It took YEARS!

I don't wanna discourage you, Rachael, but that's what this slowlee slowlee thing is all about.

But, Adrian is learning quickly. I can see that because despite the horrible idea that he got that you were turning his kids against him, he recovered so quickly!

He's noticed, Rachael. All you have to do at this point is to be as consistent as you can so he will truly believe it.

KAW,

You've restated my point exactly. I started off by subverting my needs to her as much as humanly (or at least Andy-ly) possible.

Perhaps that was a true change for me because I have a real aversion to pushing. So for me, it is not OK to push. Not even some of the time.

But I'm not above a gentle nudge from time to time.

Sorry to say, KAW, but I've already had the lightbulb about parallel lives. Take a quick look at We don't know how the future will turn out

JJ,

The prime directive will always be to do what works and stop doing what doesn't. It seems to me that the worse your sit is, the easier it is to find specific techniques that work for you.

You can't throw it all away when things get better. That would be a definite 360. So in that context, DB is for life.

But I feel stalled. I can't really articulate it, but I know things can be better.

I feel kinda selfish because I'm thinking about what's missing in the R for me, but I know that if I can find the missing link, W will be happier too.

Your "ready to walk away" idea definately isn't for me. Even if I could get my mind around it, I'm honour bound to my family.

At this point, it's moot anyway. I truly think that W and I are both committed to OR.

Seems to be more a matter of what form that R will take.

[Jamesjohn]

P.S. to my last post...

Although the process I took myself through seems like I had to learn to "love my wife less", it was really the total opposite. I really learned, and am learning, how to love my wife more.

[Jamesjohn]

"But I feel stalled. I can't really articulate it, but I know things can be better."

Boy, do I know that feeling, my friend. It's soooo difficult to just sit still and be calm when you've come so far, and can see how much farther you get.

My wife has helped me to re-frame some of my thoughts on some of the periods of our lives.

She calls them "seasons".

Our worst times were what she calls our "pruning" season. This season really hurt, and was followed by a long and lonely dormant season.

As the springtime arrives, the weather starts getting warmer, but still has it's warm and cold days. However, there is some growth happening, leaves start forming, and blossoms are soon to follow.

I'll stop there, 'cuz I think y'all get the point. Except probably you Southern California people! Most of you don't know from seasons, do you?!

Remember that even during the times of the dormant seasons, there can be unseen growth happening.

[Jamesjohn]

"I feel kinda selfish because I'm thinking about what's missing in the R for me, but I know that if I can find the missing link, W will be happier too."

Sorry, buddy, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

If this is what you're striving for, this may be where you're getting stuck.

Unless you're talking about your wife having a happier Andy to have an R with, so they can find the missing links together.

P.S. Re your son's autism, have any of your Dr.'s checked into the possibility of him maybe having epilepsy, or some other kind of seizure disorder?

Some friends of our have a son who was diagnosed as autistic, and was treated as such for 15 years. After doing some research, the Dr.'s treated him with some med's used in seizure therapy, and the results were dramatic.

Don't know if you've been down this path yet, but, if you haven't, it might be worth checking into.

[Janey2]

I apologize if I'm coming from somewhere else as the rest of you, but I keep thinking "TAKE HER AWAY FOR THE WEEKEND!" Put yourselves into a different environment and give each other time. Is that possible? Is there somewhere which could provide respite care for your son?

[Stephanep]

180+180 = 360. Sure does...I teach grade 7 math... and that's what I tell my students, but think of it this way: where does your circle start. You see, depending on the circumferance (is that how it is spelled in english ???) your 360 may simply lead you to where you WANT to be.

In simpler terms...when you started doing 180's, it wasn't to start doing things differently then you had EVER done them, cause if you were together and in love at fisrt, it is because you were doing SOMETHING right! The 180's were departures from actions, paterns, behaviors that had developped and were counter productive. You did NOT start doing the opposite of what you had EVER done, simply the opposite of these younger, destructive paterns. So maybe now is the time to look back and do that extra 180, full circle! Where did your circle start? At the begging of the relationship, not when the relationship started suffering.

Man I hope this is makin sens!

Dont ask to get your needs fulfilled...make it so they WILL get fulfilled. You posted to me about self fulfilling prophecies...well make this a POSITIVE self fulfilling prophecy! Put yourself (and your wife of course) in a position to get what you need/desire!

Chin up! Suck in that belly! Stand tall! And "Just do it"!

Steph

[ANS]

The seasons thing JJ mentioned meshes with the "perception of her feelings towards you" that KAW mentioned.

My MIL once told my W that in the course of a M, you fall in and out of love with your SO.

My W never told me explicitly that she'd fallen out of love with me, but the conversation with her mom would imply that she did at some point.

However, whatever her current feelings, she isn't stuck in the view that she doesn't love me.

JJ,

I hafta stick to my guns on the "making W happier" thing. You're absolutely right that having an happier Andy will help. But if you're balking because "happiness comes from within", then I hafta sort of disagree.

I think the "happiness comes from within" concept is one of those things that is blown out of proportion.

It's a sure thing that you can't expect happiness to originate from the outside. But...

We were happy doing things together for so many years. Yes, both of us were happy. And we can do fun and happy things again!

Janey2,

Thanks for dropping by. This isn't the first time your idea came up, and I'm sure it won't be the last But frankly, it isn't possible at this time.

Steph,

I think you're trying to say the same thing that Lily posted earlier. You're both right. I know that things will go in a larger circle some day.

I'm not really sure which way this thread is going. I don't really need encouragement right now, but I thank those who provide it.

I could use some advice, but I know that kind of clues I can give everyone to help me into the right direction.

I don’t think I’m in a typical DB sit right now.

Maybe if we just set my whole history aside and try to look at things with a beginner’s mind.

OK. Here’s my perception of the way things are:

My W is of a mind that she’s always relied too heavily on me to fulfill her needs. When I was unavailable (the reasons don’t matter – she doesn’t blame me), she spread her wings and got new friends. She says that in her younger days, she was always part of a gang of friends. When we started dating, we combined socializing with a gang of people with some “couple” time (i.e.: alone). But over the last coupla years, she seemed to get one best friend who she spent a lot of time with. It wasn’t me. Her perception that she relied too much on me prevented me from being that “best” friend. Most recently, it was MF – who readers of my threads will be familiar with. However, MF’s W got jeleous and now prevents W from socializing with us. W resents this. She blames society for dictating that male-female relationships are somehow bad.

So now, W is friendless. I think she feels that her only recourse is to concentrate on being happy by herself. So she does the same sorts of things that made her happy before. She still goes rollerblading, but alone instead of with MF. She reads a lot. That kind of stuff.

Then there’s the fatigue factor. It could easily be said that W hasn’t slept properly since D#1 was born 16 years ago. But putting that aside, she definitely hasn’t slept properly in the past several weeks. Since school started S#2(autistic) has been bouncing off the walls from the time he awakens until we stuff him into bed (and even then…)

Hormones. W is going through peri-menopause. I won’t elaborate.

Libido. Gone.

A typical day starts with me waking the kids (except S#2 who’s already bouncing) and preparing for work. No coffee routine. W is trying desparately to rest. Once I’m gone, she takes over and gets ‘em all packed off to school. When I arrive home from work, W is out blading (alone). Of course, before leaving, she has seen to the kids homework, put supper on, etc. etc. etc. I get home, eat, do dishes. W gets home, and the kids are all over her…

Well I won’t go on. You get the idea.

This is all starting to sound like a rehash of some of my previous threads, so I’m gonna stop now.

It was supposed to be a "fresh" look at things. Sheesh!

Thanks for listening.

[Jamesjohn]

"I think the "happiness comes from within" concept is one of those things that is blown out of proportion."

I agree Andy! It made me LMAO when I read this, I didn't mean for it to sound like that! I'm a hippie, my friend, not a flower-child!! That statement sounded too "trancendental" for me!

OK, beginner's mind.

Change anything.

How about some kid type of stuff. I thought about this last night, and was going to ask you if there was a "system" in place re the kids, or if it was a pretty flexible thing. From what you just posted, it sounds like you are very scheduled. What could you do to stir up some changes here, even if only on a "hit-and-run" basis?

Can you go to work late one day, and get them ready? Come home early, and YOU do the dinner, or work on it together? Or maybe bring some dinner home? You help them with homework? Somehow provide a buffer from the kids being all over her when she gets home? Any other small things to break the pattern you've got going? Doesn't have to be a rigemented and permanent change, just out of the blue, and on occassions, just to kinda blow her away.

[ANS]

I hear ya, JJ.

You have some great ideas. I'll bear them in mind. One thing that's stopping me from doing some of them right away is that I'm pretty burnt out myself.

As I write this, it's 6:40PM. I've been at work since about 7:30AM. Work is really hectic right now, and frankly it pisses me off. I was on call last weekend. Would have liked to ask W to do something, but...

Last night, I did a minor hit-and-run of sorts.

I accidentally brushed against W's er...um... shoulder? So I gave her a kiss on the neck. Then a bite on the neck. She smiled a little, so I said, "Well, I'm tired. Not dead." That elicited a giggle.

I also play "footsie" a little in bed. I can at least put my foot against hers w/o bothering her sleep.

But as for changing the routine, I'm gonna have to wait a little.

There's so much going on. I only mentioned a few things, but d#1 driving lessons, s#1 karate, d#2 singing, d#1/d#2 dancing... I could go on.

Believe me, W and I are both kept hopping.

But believe me, I'm gonna revisit your post. It was really great!

Thanks, JJ.