(back from Hawaii and really had a great time. H's Godparents were celebrating their 50th anniversary so of course it was a very touching and positive experience. Heard many tales of marital woe from some guests, most of whom stayed married, btw).
Your question, BND, assumes some control over the R or the behavior of the WAS. Some of the answers here suggest that IF the LBSer "stands for the M", it will effect the outcome. I am not certain that is true in MANY cases. SOME cases of course. But if a WAS is really gone, what is the LBSer doing?
I have learned a few things that I THINK I am sure of....first off, the "old rules" of what I thought I'd never put up with don't all apply because some of them stemmed largely from pride. 2nd, major HUGE forgiveness is needed in most long term marriages in order for them to survive happily. Many people stay married but also stay in horrible behavior patterns of continuing their conflict/War and measuring, and getting more bitter by the day. NO forgiveness is ever modelled for the children, nor is any conflict resolution. These tools are essential but many many adults lack them and are passing on this deficit to their children, as their parents may have done to them. Taking the WAS back under the wrong conditions is to be avoided if possible, in my opinion and for many reasons.
When I think of the kids and divorce and marriage, in General--not necessarily my M, I have to say something else. ....If the WAS comes back from guilt, or for financial reasons, or b/c OW/OM dumped them, or for any of the "wrong" reasons, you could well be worse off than if they just faded away into their alien worlds. Otherwise, sometimes, the kids see horrible mistreatment/mental cruelty/boundary violations GALORE, and then supposed reconciliation which ends up being nothing more than a marital separation within a home and "intact" family....
Look, I appear to be IN my M and my h is saying most of what I need to hear. Not all, but most. Things look promising, (yes I am wary of jinxing myself, but aren't we all?). So it's not with complete bias I say all this.
If the WAS has left but we remain fixated on maneuvering/manipulating the sitch into a reconciliation, then in a way aren't we causing ourselves pain? Isn't some of this self-inflicted, if the WAS says "I want out" and then LEAVES, and says nothing that shows real indecision about the M (as opposed to "newness" confusion about how the money will work, or where to live, etc.) then in the WAS' mind WE are the ones in denial and revising present day reality.
The WAS usually does revise the M big time, but so do the LBSers in the reverse, when they first reminisce about the M. Truth be told, most of us know down deep that there were some bad things in the marriage before, and that there are at least a few good things about the WAS being gone, and for sure we know it's GREAT that they're gone if we can avoid alien spew...so why do so many hang on when no rope/line/thread is present to hold at all? In some cases it is losing the familiar and known, and Deep, terrifying fears that keep the LBSer rooted to the ground they thought they knew.
Sorry if this offends, but I tire of the claims that somehow this all equals great love or committment on the part of the LBSer who remains fixated on reconciling in the face of repeated "abuse", but gets a little righteous about it, as if the LBSer who finally detaches and GAL loves the WAS less. In reality, in that example the LBSer who says "enough" and moves on doesn't love their WAS less, they are simply healthier.
No matter what, with the Possible exception of seriously harming her physically, My younger sister would have taken her ex back no matter what he did to her, if he had come back. Is that really love? It has been over 10 years now, and she is still deeply hurt and wounded, and somewhat bitter....does this mean she must have really really loved him? More than a woman who moves on because she wants to salvage what life still has to offer her? I don't think so. I think my sister's marriage was much less than she claimed it to be---I love my sister and she deserved better, BUT-- I often wondered about her H's feelings for her. They supposedly "never fought"...I always thought that was a bad sign. Then He left and she fell apart, and even she admitted back then her greatest emotion was FEAR...followed closely by a piercing sense of rejection and loss which we all have come to know. But you see, that is not necessarily love. ANd if it is not love, or is not all about love, then some of it may be fear, terror, pride, etc. And if that dictates our course of action for too long, then WE ARE the crazy ones. It's one thing for the WAS to be selfish....but it's another to let someone keep hurting us even when they've moved on and aren't even registering our existence....we are in effect hurting ourselves, over and over again. That has to be crazy if they've already moved on!
Unlike some of you, I did not want H back MORE when he was a jerk. On the contrary, I wanted to slap him with papers. If he had not shown regret and made attempts at the M, if I had seen NO signs of hope or regret or love from him, I would NOT have wanted him more....but it would have clarified so much for me....
By the way, when I was with H this past week it was like a 2nd honeymoon--only better, since we weren't broke jokes....STILL, I had a few moments wherein I "mentioned" to H that I was still dealing with unexpected surprise anger. Sometimes he handled it well. Mostly he stayed silent, or asked me not to dwell....
I don't want those moments of anger to spoil our time together, but there is so much left to heal and or resolve....Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for what seems to be happening. H sure talks of our future in great long term detail, very hopeful and optimistic, dream house, great work hours, trips, etc. Just sometimes I feel as if the past 2 years are being wiped out and I am expected to do what with all that? He wasn't gone for one crazy weekend...
I know it won't be forgotten. I have a working brain. But maybe down the road, with his support and some dang work (why am I the one reading the self help books and getting counselling? Is THAT insane or what?!)--maybe someday I can face those moments and say, "yes that did suck, but it's different now and that was long ago..." sorry to ramble on. Just feeling as if some of the answers posted were written more from fear than from reason or faith. "WHEN YOU OPERATE IN FEAR, YOU ARE NOT OPERATING IN FAITH".
I really liked that saying for those dark moments. Honestly, the very last thing I want is NOT a divorce. There are worse things than divorce. I would prefer a divorce if my other option is my H returning in a bitter or begrudging way, re-injuring my heart and prolonging a miserable relationship -with an audience of kids to boot. In other words, THIS M is dead and maybe and hopefully the new one will thrive as I hope and pray....but the idea of going back to what the M was when the bombs were falling and my heart dropped into my stomach repeatedly, ummm, no thanks....
There is at least one thing worse than being alone.....---it is wishing you were alone.
This has has been on my mind. Yet I see I have hijacked. Can someone tell me how to put this on my thread at "piecing", or do I need to retype the parts I want? Thanks and good night!
j-
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
Hey J, I am glad you had a good visit with your Husband. I also agree with most of your post. Having your WAS come home for the wrong reasons is worse then having him gone. In some ways both you and I were lucky because our Husbands were so far away we had the space we needed to heal and figure things out. I don't think I could have handled the MLC with him living locally and breathing down my neck. I could never have dealt with the ugly spew sessions in my face. Hanging up the phone or pressing delete on the email was easier. I agree about your sister. I too have one of those! My Mother has been Divorced from my Father for over 35 years and she is still bitter and angry, never remarried. History was rewritten over and over again, it is a crazy way to live. I no longer live in fear. I think I have faced the worst possible part of the crisis and I have seen what I can really handle and what I can't. Sometimes I amaze myself There have been many things that I have done that I never thought possible. I would not choose to live alone because I genuinely love my Husband and I am thrilled that we get a second chance. But I know I could handle it if I had to. Life will never be the same. I too hit those little land mines, when a thought enters my head. I am trying to get over it but I have also tried to make my Husband aware that he does need to acknowledge my pain and understand that I am having a hard time. He is being loving and supportive. He says the right things and is trying to make me happy. I know he loves me and wants this marriage to work.
So I guess the bottom line is that it is my choice to let go, or at least try my hardest to move forward with my life. I can't go on holding onto the resentment or the anger. We can only build a better marriage from this point on.
Maybe the original foundation this marriage was built on was strong, that is why we have reached this point. Even if history was rewritten there had to be something there to be able to rebuild on or we never would have reached this point.
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
Boy can I relate to the "standing for the marriage" for fear's sake and not for love. Fear is definately the predominant emotion I felt when the first bomb dropped. In fact, it may have been the only emotion I felt for many many months. Everything was driven by fear. I don't necessarily think things could have been different. After all, that was the first time I'd ever been through something like that, and my H had been my ONLY life line where we moved.
And I too get a little frustrated with some posts about standing for the marriage that seem to be more self-righteousness and justification than faith. I AM a LBS, and I did find some comfort in the feeling that I was the bigger person for not reaching for D. But now I can be honest with myself and say that I did not reach for D, mostly out of fear of the unknown and of cutting off the possibility of having the familiar back.
And now that the fear has receeded (always feeling it to some degree) I can see this.
When I got to the point that I could verbally give H and myself permission to move on and let go of the marriage, I think I felt real love for H. I've always loved him in a way I can't explain. I think it has to do with understanding his most base personality drives, because we have them in common (introversion, withdrawal, self-protection, depression). But when I got to the point where I could say I didn't hate H for not being healthy enough to be part of a family, and I would care about him even if I had to move on with my life, then I think I was really in touch with my love for him. And my love for myself and S4.
How have you been doing lately with your H? I hope things are improving for everyone. I pray everyday that you, L and Mark and I are making progress with your/our M.
Since that retreat I went to, I am really feeling better about myself and who I choose to be. Thank goodness I am not wasting so much energy being the way I was. Its a lot easier to be loving that hateful and takes less effort because loving should come naturally. My M is still up in the air, but I know for myself, I have made some headway by the choices I am making.
There have been many things that I have done that I never thought possible.