SO glad you're Mom is doing great!! I bet she's almost ready to go dancing
J is having a nerve block tomm.. the real thing (not the facette sp?) and he's nervous. They had a cancellation and moved his appt up a week. The Dr. said it will be painful for a week and then the pain should stop like someone flipped a switch. I"m praying that this helps him. He sees a surgeon on Weds and isn't ready to go that route unless he has to. If you'd send up a prayer, I'd appreciate it. It's a small procedure, but I worry with anything involving anethesia. He'll get his stars and good behavior back on my end.. he can't have anything to eat and drink before he goes at 1:30. He's gonna be like a bear with a sore booty for sure!
Thanks WCW The procedure went well and J is fine. His back is sore today, but all the pain down his leg is gone.. yay!! I stayed home with him today. He was sooo sweet this morning. He didnt want me to stay up after I got the kids off to school. He said he misses me and wants me near him when he feels bad. Sigh.. those pain pills must really be making him loopy !
Our first MC appt was last Friday and we have another tomm. The first session was very good and I think it's brought us closer already Thought I'd come and journal the C's suggestions/ideas and what's working/not working before tomm.
Call me dense, but the C solved a mystery for me. Sometimes I read things on the board or get good advice but am not sure exactly how to make it "work". One thing I've heard over and over through this from the BB, friends and my IC is to "love myself first", "we have to love ourselves before we can love someone else". I agree and it sounds easy..just look in the mirror and say "Sheila, I love you, you're OK just the way you are" I can do that.. but it's never seemed to get me far. My attitude is better and I"m more forgiving of myself, but it hasnt exactly led me to a place where I feel completely loved enough that I don't seek approval from others and for J to provide that "feeling" loved emotion in my life. I've turned to God and I know without a doubt that he loves me, but still, there's an empty spot where I crave love, affection, approval so that I can say "I must be a good person.. look how J loves me"
Now I believe I've heard the answer to how I can love myself enough that I'm not constantly seeking that from others, being needy, feeling blue if it's absent. The C was talking J about his depression and OCD. He said that the depression is what worries him the most. We can take meds, but if we don't also take the proper action to overcome the illness, it will remain a problem. He said it's like fighting your way out of a paper bag and you do have to fight it every step of the way to recover. Still, there's no guarantee it won't come back 5 years from now.
He said:
1) In order to solve a problem you have to get to the root of it. For J that means his depression and anxiety. What caused it. For me, my anger, fear and cartaking/seeking approval. He said it does no good to rehash the mistakes of the past because they can't be changed. But, it does help to try to figure out where the feelings are coming from and confront the issue.
2) He said that most people who come to him for depression and anxiety are haunted by secrets or lies. Either they are hiding something bad, trying to be someone they aren't, or not communicating with their families truthfully. He also sees people who are holding on to the past and living there. They were taught something (such as they are bad), and are believing it and their self esteem suffers. He said it's important that we confront the truth, express it and believe it. The present truth not a truth from the past or what we want to believe/hear. He told J that it's important that he share his feelings with me truthfully and not be afraid of conflict. That problems can't be solved unless we are honest about where they came from. He asked J why he doesnt take more responsiblity and he said because it seems easier. He asked me why I think J doesnt, and I said because his mother does everything for his father and family. Also, they live by "appearances" and I think J was not allowed to try things and fail without being made to feel stupid. J agreed. So here he is a grown man, afraid to try because he doesnt want to fail or be criticized and it's easier to let me fix things or have my way instead of expressing himself. The C says that needs to be confronted with the truth that J is a grown man, it's OK to try and fail, that I'm not his mother, that my opinion is important but he doesnt have to do things my way or allow me to control him. He said what he was fed as a child is not the truth and he should fight those thoughts and embrace what is true for J as a grown man.
3) The C said the key to loving ourselves is to go about creating a healthy environment to live in... to carve out our place where we feel safe, happy and nurtured. Feed our bodies healthy food. Take vitamins and exercise. Get plenty of rest. Find a hobby we enjoy. Figure out what causes stress and an unhealthy environment and exorcise that out of our life once and for all. He said we should never ignore our feelings, fears, anger, anxiety.. that we are trying to tell ourself that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. He gave the example of our kids and asked what we would do if one came to us crying because he had cut his knee. We said we'd put medicine and a bandaid on it.. dry his tears and comfort him. Then he asked why then would we not do the same for ourself and our spouse? That the anxiety, fear, anger, withdrawal are signs that we need medicine and comfort for the problem. He said we should be able to talk about our feelings and exorcise the problems out of our life without blame. That there's a solution to most problems and if we truly want the best for each other, we'll go about creating a healthy atmospere for sharing and nurturing our relationship. This really hit me and is what solved the "how do I love myself" mystery. I havent created a healthy atmosphere for myself or J. I havent confronted the things that aren't healthy in a way that's kind and solution focused. And, I've held on to things from that past as true, when they just arent anymore.
The C went on to suggest that J move out and take the wheel. We talked a lot about the kids stressing J out and how to work on that. We talked about figuring out what kind of people we are and having our actions reflect that consistently. He said if the truth is that J is a responsible man that loves his family and wants to lead us, his actions have to reflect that. For me, if I'm a forgiving, loving wife that wants to support J and not mother him, my actions must reflect that also.
So, we're trying to apply his advice and I think it's helping. I've given a lot of thought to my anger about the past and have been using my quiet time to confront it. And yeah, I'm finding that most of it is created by me holding onto things that aren't true in the present. I've been very angry about J saying ILYBINILWY and leaving. That just isnt true anymore and I've let it poison me with anger, resentment and unforgiveness. He does love me and he's not going anywhere. He's done enough to prove that to me and I have to let it go.. exorcise it out of my life The other one is my feelings of rejection. Because we arent ML regularly I start feeling unloved, undesired and rejected. I think these feelings come from the past when he didnt desire me and did reject me on a regular basis. The thing is.. we're not ML a lot right now because he's having back problems. So there again, I'm interpreting his actions incorrectly and it's making me unhappy. I've built a wall and havent let J be close to me because of it. After I worked through that earlier in the week and my attitude changed, things changed between us. I didnt mention it to J, but he mustve sensed it because we've ML and snuggled almost every night.
It's working out for J too. His OCD reared it's head the other night and he checked the alarm clock six times in a row. It doesnt bother me, but he mentioned it. He said it's because he hasnt been wanting to get out of bed in the morning and is afraid he'll oversleep. So, we talked about it, and tracing the problem back to the source - he isnt getting enough rest and needs to go to bed earlier when he's tired. We've done that and I think it's helping. I didnt notice him checking the clock, but I'm not sure if it's because the anxiety is gone, or because he's just willed himself not to do it.
Long post I know but it helps me to type it out The C advice is helping me so much.. to love myself mostly. To express myself truthfully without anger or blame. To set boundaries and speak up honestly when I'm uncomfortable with something. It feels a lot different when the goal is to change something that feels wrong. Less like b*tching maybe? J was irritable in Lowe's last weekend and I was walking on eggshells. Me and D12 went to another store and J brought the boys home. Then he called and said "I didnt know you two were going to be shopping all day!" It was only an hour and I started feeling anxious and hurried up out of the store to get home because I knew he was in a p*ssy mood. On the way home though I thought about the truth and realized that he's not my Daddy. I have every right to shop for an hour and not worry about rushing home if we had no plans, or emergencies. I also have a right to shop without him rushing me, rolling his eyes or creating an atmosphere that is tense. I talked to him about it later that night and told him how I felt and that I felt like I wouldnt want to go shopping with him in the future if he was going to be irritable, and that he has no right to rush me. He shared that he was stressed because the boys were being rowdy and I was concentrating on shopping and didnt seem to care or notice that they were misbehaving. In the end, we agreed that we need to work with the boys on their behavior and take time out to deal with them. I offered up that I'll try to let J know how long I'll be out in the future, and that yes, I do get looking and lose track of time. The real reason he was p*ssy was because our sitter called and asked him to go to her house and see if her husband was there. He wasnt at work and she was afraid he slept through his alarm. J didnt want to drag the boys out in the cold to run that errand, so he was irritated that I wasnt on my way home so he made a snotty comment to me.
We worked through that without an argument! Unbelievable. In the past I wouldve been p*ssed and defensive, he'd have been p*sed and defensive.. I'd have tried to make him feel like an a**hole for being rude and he'd have accused me of not paying attention to the kids and being selfish.. equals me feeling like a bad mom. Now I just feel like we need to talk to the boys and teach them that they can't get into things while we're shopping and we need to talk about our expectations on how long we'll be out, etc. J likes to know what to expect... I accept that about him and am willing to work with it as long as I'm not expected to have a curfew or let him control my time.
What's working for me right now... being loving and confronting my anger with the truth. Sharing my feelings with J honestly without blame. Allowing him to take responsiblity for some things and do them his way (he's helping with the budget!). Putting up a stop sign whenever I start trying to fix things for someone (S20 mostly this week), and not feeling guilty when they have a negative consequence that I saw coming but didnt try to prevent. Doing small things or acts of service is a biggie for J. I've been pouring him a glass of orange juice in the mornings and he reacts positively. I can see the difference between this and mothering him... it's a subtle diff I don't always understand. Big diff between packing his lunch like a little boy and this. He sees one as mothering and control.. the other as a loving favor. OTOH.. he reacts positively when I just tell him that there's a bowl of leftovers he can take for lunch if he wants.
What's not working... pushing J to read our Dave Ramsey book and bringing up the subject of what we need to "do". Impatience with the process. It's not working ask J leading questions. I do this too much. I'll ask him a question that I think I know the answer to and after he gives his answer, I share what I was thinking. This irritates the snot out of him and he called me on it. I just need to come out and tell him what I'm thinking and then ask him what he thinks.
Hi Piglet, Thanks for sharing your counseling session with us here. It was very helpful and insightful to me.
"to love myself mostly. To express myself truthfully without anger or blame. To set boundaries and speak up honestly when I'm uncomfortable with something."
I think I need to plaster this on my walls, refridgerator and mirror.:)
Snow day so I've been cleaning and thinking! Question for ya'll and MWD if she ever reads the BB. Is there a point in DBing when the best course of action is to say screw it.. I'm finished? I need to pull out DR and read it again. I ask because the big changes in J came when I threw in the towel. I'm seeing that in some other Rs also and I wonder if there's a time when expecting nothing out of a S leads to getting nothing out of them. My best MF has been struggling in his R for over a year. He's doing what I'd call DBing his butt off. His partner is with him, but giving almost zilch to the R. They sleep together but do not ML..and my MF has made the majority of the effort. Like me and J, they've been going to a C, but MF is the one working to change. About a month ago he reached his limit and decided that he was never going to get what he needs out of this R. He feels angry and resentful. So, he went to their C and asked her to help him end the R. He has started sleeping in the spare room and has stopped working to make the R better. His partner has become very worried and is now the one working his tail off to fix things. So much so that he's annoying my MF by being clingy. Reminds me soooo much of what J and I have been through. When he lost me.. he realized what he was losing and decided he'd better start working on the R. I have a GF that basically went through the same thing. Her BF treated her like crap and she gave up her job to move to where he is in order to work on the R. When she got there, he still wasnt working on the R with her. She left and moved back and now he's in counseling and giving it an honest effort. What gives? Don't a lot of LBS here get motivated by the threat of losing their WAS, and then they start making changes for the R that should have been made before?
So, what's the difference in R's that are DB'd through patience and one spouse changing, and R's that reconcile because the WAS realizes they are going to lose the LBS if they don't start trying too? And, is there a point where it will take a wake up call for someone to realize they're taking a R for granted and that expecting someone to stay in limbo is unacceptable?
Is there a time to DB and put our needs aside, change ourself and encourage a WAS to recommit.. and then is there a time when recommitting isnt enough and something has to be done to move the R to the next level so that the WAS doesnt take it for granted that they can be in the R without feeding and caring for it?
Just curious.. I hope ya'll will post your thoughts and opinions on this one.. I've been wondering about it for awhile. Sometimes it's hard to post things even because what has worked in my sitch seems to go against DBing... but then maybe I'm mis interpreting.
A good question Piglet, I am curious to see the replys.
Today that is exactly how I feel "screw it". I just feel so overwhelmed; trying to repair our R, worrying about finances, work, taking care of the kids, pets, house etc. Not that I would ever actually be a WAW, there are times that I fantasize about it.
I think everyone has their own "limit" as to what is right and wrong. Personally I don't think I would have the patience as so many on these boards seem to have.
That being said, I am sure there are others on the board that would not stand for their S having two A's (which mine did) - never say never eh?
Anyway, I think it is one own's decision to make. No one can tell you when to call it quits, its just something you have to come to decide on your own.
When the first A happened, and I was recovering, I said to myself that I would never, ever go through this again - right! However, I do know that if it happened a third time, that would definitely be the end of it. It has already come close to that several times this time around. The difference is, my H is making a lot of effort to read, go to C, etc. to help piece this R back together again - something he never did the first time, which I feel was a major problem we had then
Hopefully we can rectify it this time around.
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
is there a point where it will take a wake up call for someone to realize they're taking a R for granted and that expecting someone to stay in limbo is unacceptable?
Sheila, I struggle continuously with this. I want very much to get out of limbo, but I want to be out of limbo WITH H. While I continue to peck away at the monumental task of putting things in order to go on with my life without H if he really does follow thru and leave, I never let go of the feeling and hope that I do want H to be here. I never let go of the thought that I know we can make a happy successful future together if he gives us a chance and we do the work that never ends.
Having said all that, today I am in an extreme fluctuation with my emotions. I woke up in a rage over pictures I saw flashing across H's screensaver last weekend. Now why today? Why did it take me almost a week before this flood of rage consumed me? I am trying to remember and focus on what I consider recent positives, but I really want to scream and grab him by the collar....
I am trying to figure out what set me off today. I think it is too much time on my hands to dwell on bad thoughts, but that doesn't make sense because I've been pretty busy. So that leads me to the fact that H has not made any physical contact with me all week, he's been sick with a cold. This is following a week of almost daily contact initiated by him. So I am feeling very alone, very lonely, and that makes me concentrate on bad feelings. H has been doing so much around the place and a few nice things for me, that I am feeling guilty and almost lazy, like I am not doing enough. He even asked if I specifically did something, and I had forgot, and he had a look of disappointment flash across his face. Is that setting off my rage? am I feeling inadequate because H is doing more than me right now? am I shifting my anger at myself for forgetting to do a simple chore to something else so I can be upset at H for something?
Sheila, remember AKiwi? he told me more than once that when things got better I would sabatoge the good things. Maybe it's taken me this long to understand what he was seeing. If I feel that H is disappointed in me, I want to shift the blame back to him for something he has done to hurt me. Last night I clearly saw his disappointment in me, and today I woke up in a rage at something from a week ago.
I have to remember that H is home earlier, doing more, we're talking better, all good stuff but very miniscule in the big picture of what is really needed between us.
That brings me back to your question,
Quote:
Is there a point in DBing when the best course of action is to say screw it.. I'm finished?
I can easily say screw it - TODAY - and I can easily do something to screw it up so bad today that it would be finished. But, for me, I know I am not finished, I am not done being hopeful, I am not going to say screw it. Thanks for letting me work thru this on your thread. I finally feel better today, and I think I will make it one more day, and I will get back to positive thinking.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Hi sweetie Post here anytime.. my thread es tu thread!
I get what you're saying loud and clear. It's SO hard to remain level headed when there's so much ground to cover ahead. It wasn't long ago that I realized my sabotage was robbing me of good things. Those moments of confronting the truths our C talked about. It's so easy to say "yeah, but..." when things are improving, but progress is slow. My moment has brought about a huge change between me and J. Since I've seen clearly how my mental dialogue corrupts my emotions, it's become easier to let it go. Knowing I'm the source of the problems gives me something I can really fix. Just a couple of weeks ago I was glad we were together but still feeling unloved and unsatisfied with our physical R. The only thing that's changed in that area is my attitude, and I've been sooo happy and feel much closer to J. In fact, I havent wanted to ML any more than he's able.. isnt that funny coming from me the neglected HD spouse?! I'm claiming his love and not putting a wall up, so although we're not ML often, I'm feeling the love he's trying to share instead of "yeah butting" our sitch to deal.
Projecting your feelings huh? It definately sounds plausible, and if that's the case, the cure for the anger and rage could be just around the corner I wonder if I did the same earlier this week.. had a big blacksliding hissy fit about J not helping more. Came at a time when I was overwhelmed with how much I have to do and how slow the progress is. Blame shifting.. ugh. Yep.
I'm so glad you shared all of this. I think it's common to a lot of us on the boards really. The anger is often at the surface and setbacks come regularly.. it's hard to not let it take us for a mental and emotional ride when we're not feeling at our best.
Hugggggs!!! Hope your newfound peace keeps you thinking positive
Thought I'd come and journal the C's suggestions/ideas and what's working/not working before tomm.