Piglet, It sounds like you're acknowledging the behaviors you need to work on to manage your emotions and promote more positive communication from your end. You also said that you're doing better than in the past. Well done!
It sounds like you're really trying and working hard on your end. Perfection isn't expected.
Concerned_Listener
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
Thanks CL Especially for the reminder that we can't be perfect!
H came through for us in a big way last night He followed me into the bedroom after I took a bath and asked me to sit down by him on the bed. He hugged me and told me that he's sorry this is so hard and that he wants to give me what I need. He was so sweet and encouraging about our future. He said that he loves me and always wants me by his side and that he's happy when we're together. Then he said that he wants to learn my LL and how to give me what I need. He asked me again what would help and asked me to give him specifics.
Then he blew my mind a little. He said that he wants it to be like it was in the beginning of our M. He talked about his memories of the passion we shared and said that I was so relaxed then ML to him and that he wants that back. I was stunned.. he's never mentioned that our physical R has changed or that he misses anything, or there's a specific problem. He said that he can see how he rejected me and I'm afraid he'll do that again. And he acknowledged that I havent been free to share my sexuality within our R without repercussions. ML has basically been his way for years. (The therapist said that this is common in men with OCD, and could be one of the reasons we don't ML frequently. She said that it's a matter of creating perfection, and expectations, and when a partner throws a curveball during it can create anxiety and performance issues) Anyway, he said that he wants to know me.. he wants to know my heart and he wants to know me sexually too. He said that it's not a lack of desire on his part, it's a lack of acting on it. That we don't spend enough time together and then we both start wondering "is she in the mood".. "is he in the mood". He's right. I honestly think that we both feel the same about so much. We enjoy each other physically.. we both enjoy hugging, kissing and we're generally affectionate. It's just making time for the passionate relationship that we've neglected. And, J has admitted that he went through a period of time when he didnt know if he loved me, was attracted to me, etc.
He suggested that we start being more affectionate. Turning off the TV or whatever else we're doing when the kids go to bed and start spending quality time together. He said we need to get comfortable and get to know each other all over again.. explore our likes and dislikes and said his goal is for us to feel as comfortable and passionate as we did in the beginning of our M.
I'm feeling very cared for, heard and seen right now We'll see what happens!
Yesterday was a good day for us. J was in an irritable mood when I talked to him during the day. His leg is really hurting him alot. I gave him a foot and back massage because he was tired and hurting when he got home and that helped his mood He didn't want to take his pain meds because they make him loopy, so we talked about that for a bit and about him putting his health first. He said he didnt want to come home and crash every day. He did take his meds, and we had a good dinner with the kids. He gets so stressed in the afternoons coming home from work. He's always been that way.. the transition is hard for him. It seems he comes home and chews us out and by the time he's relaxed, the rest of us are ticked off. Trying to help him find a way to manage that. I think he doesnt believe it's OK for him to come home and take time for himself to unwind. I'm hoping if I encourage that, he'll see that it's OK and he needs it.
After the kids went to bed I asked if he wanted to go and snuggle. He said, yes I was surprised at how I felt. We laid in bed for about an hour touching and talking and being close. It was nice, but almost too intimate. Does that make sense to any of the other piecers? When we're ML I can focus on what's going on, but when you're just being physically close, it's hard to check out of that mentally at all. I'm still very afraid of being hurt again. One of the big issues I've carried from our crisis is that our R was great for four years after we divorced and then all fell apart. I was crazy, madly in love with J and had to put a lot behind me to feel that way for him again. The thought of having that with him, losing it, and going through h*ll again is very scary. I was so hurt last year that at times I didnt know if I wanted to live. I wasnt suicidal, but it was very painful to face each day.
Anyway, things are good.. it's going to take time to trust and be fearless again. I love J so much... it's definately worth the struggle, and it's getting better.
Hi Piglet, Things sound really good for you. You, like me, seem to have a hard time managing our emotions. We also have a hard time with unrealistic expectations.
Quote: It's just making time for the passionate relationship that we've neglected. And, J has admitted that he went through a period of time when he didnt know if he loved me, was attracted to me, etc.
Ditto on my sitch as well.
Quote: He said we need to get comfortable and get to know each other all over again.. explore our likes and dislikes and said his goal is for us to feel as comfortable and passionate as we did in the beginning of our M.
I wonder if this is how my H might be feeling as well.
Anyhow, while snuggling with your H I know you had all kinds of fears raise their ugly little head. Try not to let that happen, just live in the moment with no worries. Enjoy your time together!
I was going thru your previous thread and something jumped out at me so I'm dragging it over here:
Quote: I guess he senses how I feel because he keeps saying I'm quiet, and he's right. He asks if anything is wrong, but what can I say? I've told him that I'm a little blue, and did say that it's hard to admit that we'll be dealing with this long term. That's all I can say though. I don't want to pile anything on him that I don't have to or that might make him feel guilty.
Normally I make my disclaimers as I go, but I feel very strongly about this so I'm going to word it strongly and make the disclaimer up front: what follows is only my opinion and certainly not anything I know for sure. Having said that...
ACK! Stop it! Especially given the other issues in your R (OCD, for example), you guys have got to get straight whose business is whom's, and you'll continue to struggle with intimacy as long as you can't reveal your true self. You wrote: "He asks if anything is wrong, but what can I say?" He's a grown man, Sheila, what you can say is the whole truth. I don't hear you blaming him; if you were, that would be your business to work on. Instead, I hear you describing your feelings. You get to feel however you feel. He doesn't get to take responsibility for that. You worry that he will, in fact, take responsibility for your feelings so you withhold them. You can't do that. You're denying him an important part of you and if he actually would feel responsible for your feelings, you're denying him the opportunity to learn and grow and heal by realizing that you're responsible for your feelings and not him.
I know his OCD plays into this so maybe you could talk to his counselor or some other counselor. I know he's a worrier. I wonder, though...if you told him exactly what you're feeling, at least he'd know what to worry about (if he can't prevent himself from feeling responsible). If you pussyfoot around it and he senses that, then he has to worry about *everything*. Every move he makes he could be thinking, "is this the thing that sets her off and makes her sad?" That's a lot for a worrier to deal with. Also, if you tell him, "Sometimes I think about how much effort this R takes and how much we still have to get thru before we can even begin to work on other problems and I feel a little overwhelmed and sad," it gives him the opportunity to respond, "I know. I feel that way sometimes, too. Sometimes I don't know if we'll make it. But I know I won't quit trying." BOOM! A shared moment. Intimacy.
Back to "... but what can I say?" Here's my suggestion:
J: "You've been quiet lately. Is anything wrong?"
S: "You're right, I have been quiet. I've been thinking about how there are some issues that are very important to me that we won't even get to start addressing until a lot of our other issues get solved. It takes so long. I'm not complaining or even saying it's unfair, it's just that accepting that fact leaves me...resolved that it's out of my hands, and that I wish it was different. So I've been a little down"
J: "I know. I'm sorry I'm this way and that I cause you so much trouble. I want to make you happy and I'm trying so hard. Please bear with me."
S: "J, listen to me, baby. I didn't say it was your fault. I didn't say I wanted you to change what you're doing. I just told you how I feel and dealing with that is my business. Can you love me even if I'm sad sometimes? Can you give me enough respect to allow me to handle my feelings? Because I want to give you enough to respect to be able to tell you how I feel without worrying that you're going to make it your fault. Can you trust me enough to believe that if I have an actual problem with your behavior, if there's something I want you to change, I'll come out and tell you directly? And that if I just tell you how I feel, whether good or bad, it's because I want you to know me so we can be closer?"
And then...maybe he can or maybe he can't or maybe he won't or maybe he can work on it. Saving him from your feelings is mothering him, determining for a grown man what he can and can't handle. Most importantly, it's *not giving him a chance* to show you what he's capable of. Besides, whatever you withhold makes you separate.
Of course, if he asks you what's wrong and all you can think of is, "You're making me miserable!" then, you know, don't say anything. Tell him you're processing some stuff and you promise you'll talk about it when you have a handle on things. When you do get a handle on things, tell him exactly what you were thinking, including the blaming him part, and how you worked it out in your mind.
The thought of having that with him, losing it, and going through h*ll again is very scary. I was so hurt last year that at times I didnt know if I wanted to live.
Ah, fear! An opportunity for growth. Doesn't growth completely suck a monkey?
So what you really need is more self-confidence. Confidence enough to know that if the worst comes to pass again, that you can make it thru again. Confidence that can come from knowing that as painful as last year was, you've learned a lot and continue to work on yourself and you can face hell and defeat it one more time if you have to. Not that I'd wish that on anybody (well, I could probably come up with a couple of folks if I had to ). The point being, there's nothing he can do to reassure you. You have to look inside, believe in yourself, and revel in the inner strength you possess that allows you put yourself out there. Again.
And it might help to remember that if his issues reappear and foul things up, it's not personal to you!! You have to be healthy enough to make that distinction.
Just to make this post even longer, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. I recently came to a realization. When S and I were in the latter stages of dating she kept breaking up with me. She wanted to be free to date other people, etc. She couched it with phrases like, "We have this great love but we're just not meant to be." That didn't make any sense to me, but if I'd been healthy, I'd have simply let her make her choice. My self-esteem, however, wasn't up to the challenge. So I was clingy and guilt-trippy and would eventually wheedle her back (her coming back is her issue, my wheedling is mine). So the point is, if I had been healthy, I would have let her go. Being healthy would have cost me what I wanted. And that sucks an additional monkey! Being unhealthy, though, just got me into a turbulent relationship with another unhealthy person.
You gotta learn to be healthy, deal with your business and let him deal with his. No matter what. If you overcompensate because of his OCD...then you're both unhealthy. Learn to be healthy, even if it costs you something you want. J is on the right track and with a bit of luck, it won't ever come to that.
So, that's it. Easy stuff. Like falling off a log.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Hey Bud Glad you stopped by and left some food for thought. You have good points as usual and I'll re-read and think it through. I think what I was getting at by not saying much to J about my feeling blue is that I'm learning to detach in a way that I can be sad without laying it at his feet because he hasn't fixed it, or something about the R disappoints me. I did tell him that I'm blue and was feeling bad because I'm realizing this is a long term struggle. I think he comforted me when I told him that. So, on that point, it was more of a matter of him being truthful about what he could give and me processing it and feeling real emotions without blaming and running away from the R.
OTOH, you're right in that I protect him at times instead of stating my feelings. I'm getting better at that, and am trying to state MY feelings without blaming him or feeling that he's responsible for them, because he isnt. Although, I have to admit, I've went the other way too, so I have to be careful or I will end up blaming or demanding that he change something. Growth in progress, but I feel good about it so far.
You know me pretty well Bud.. I need to pay attention to what I say, that I say it appropriately and at the right time with thought beforehand. I don't plan to hide things or protect J, but I do want to be considerate when he says he has more than he can personally deal with at the moment, and I'd like to make sure I'm communicating what I'm feeling honestly and taking responsibility for that rather than dumping my feelings at his feet.
More later.. I do need to be watchful of so much, but still I can't be paranoid of saying the wrong things either! He IS a grown man
I'm glad you posted.. I always look forward to your insight!
Well, I've been thinking alot about what you said Bud, and you're right. We are so tightly wound together taking responsibility for each other's feelings and me with my expectations, it's difficult. I can't say it's a pleasant thought, but I'm going to have to grow up! J on his part is getting better at handling my feelings, but I can see where he feels responsible and part of that is because my expectations of him have been to do the things that make me happy and fulfill me. The transition from that, to making me happy and being responsible for that and vice verca (sp?) is hard and full of potholes.
Right now I'm sad. I feel a loss. So, I'm here in the sadness knowing it'll lead me to acceptance.. of the past, of what can't be changed, of things I can't control, and that I need to let go. Remember your focus on letting go? How does that work? Im reading "When Things Fall Apart" again. I believe I'm starting to see the benefits of groundlessness, or at least being willing to embrace that and live where I am, experience my feelings, my loss of control, and my responsibility for me. Oh, and trying to accept me as I am.. find that confidence you talk about. It's confusing.. I feel like I'm about to break free into the sunshine if I can just stick through the sadness and accept what is.
J and I are doing OK. Still have individual issues we're dealing with and he pointed out many positives to me last night. Basically that we belong together and although it's not perfect, it's pretty good. I'd agree.. we have a great life and family.. our share of problems, but for the most part, the journey has changed us for the good so far. I'm gonna stick with that Enjoy my family, let go and accept that this is life and see where it goes.. maybe allow things to happen without my hands white knuckling the steering wheel all the time!
Things are going good here. J and I have been really close this week and the communication is getting better. I'm starting to think that I need to go back to the Dr. and ask for a med change. My negative moods pretty much coincide with my cyle and after that's over, I'm back to being positive and happy again regardless of what's going on in our R. J is seeing that pattern too. So, it's off to the Dr. in the new year to see if there's something that'll help. It's sad that it's taken me this long to realize that, but I've never dealt with PMS mood swings. All these years I thought PMS jokes were a myth!
Good things are happening here. J has changed so much, it's unbelievable. Even S20 commented the other night that he finally has a relationship with his Dad. We're going into the new year on an upswing
I'm trying not to focus so much on our R still, but notice J as an individual with needs. That's helping. he's still suffering with his back pain and I'm trying to be as supportive with that as I can. We've had some physical "moments" in spite of it and that's helping me to feel close and connected to him.
I think OT is the one who posts about direct communication? Great advice! I feel sometimes like I should be on the SSM board because it's such an issue with me. J has encouraged me to speak up and tell him what I need, so I've been doing that. Yesterday I was just in the mood and my mind was wandering I'm inclined to become negative and stuff the thoughts, but instead I called him and said "I'm in the mood to do something racy!" I think it took him off guard, but he played along Last night I was feeling flirty and decided to go with it. He was wrapping presents and I know he has bought jewelry of some kind, so I flashed him a little, made innuendos of how I'd reward him if I could have my present early. It was sooo much fun to flirt with him. By the time we went to bed, we were both tired, but still had a moment together. Was nice.. and this morning he called and mentioned it and did some flirting of his own. So, OT.. thanks for the great advice!! J responds well to me just stating what I need and being confident with it. We probably won't be ML, but our need for intimacy is being satisfied and we're getting closer.
Need to post some new year goals for myself for GAL. Back to the gym for sure! I havent gained weight, but I'm getting out of shape. And, I've noticed that I'm not as organized as I used to be. It's getting on my nerves because I've let things go around here. I think it traces back to something the C mentioned to me. She said that I'm overly motivated by negative reinforcement and need to find a way to motivate myself by setting goals for me. She's right. J is getting his OCD under control and without him being passive agressive about the house being organized, I've relaxed more than I'm comfortable with. He talked to my boss on the phone last night (who happens to also have OCD), and they were laughing about how hard I have it "living" with two anal retentive guys. The thing is.. both of them are overcoming their control/OCD probs and they are two people who have motivated me to have it together.. in order to please them I guess. So, at work, I've kinda dropped the ball too. Thank God my boss is my best friend and understands. Time for Sheila to set some goals and get organized for herself for a change! I downloaded a life goals challenge program months ago and am going to start working with that daily.. keep my planner by my side and see if I can tame my free spirt a little
Hope the holidays bring my friends on the board peace and love We had a great sermon at church Sunday about the what a gift Christ is to the world and what it means. It means freedom from our sins and mistakes. J was so touched that he took me to the alter to pray. I cried the whole time. Our pastor said it's important for us all to accept that gift, ask for forgiveness, do what we can to make it better and walk away free with our head held high so we're able to make ourselves available for God to work his will through us. J has held his head up since then. He's had many people over the last year talk to him about forgiving himself and letting the guilt go so he can move on. I think he's finally there What an amazing Christmas gift!! So my friends, if you are burdened, beating yourself up for past mistakes, there's a way out from under that. If you're a praying person, get on your knees, ask for forgiveness, do your best to make it better and accept that you can walk into the new year free from the past. God has already forgotten and forgiven and he loves us!
Quote of the day: Never let yesterday use up too much of today.
Thought that was a good one to post because it's easy to concentrate on the past and not move forward. Especially for those of us who've been hurt by infidelity, separation, and harsh words.
I have a question for the board. How do ya'll deal with basic life issues and parenting while you're piecing? If there is a disagreement, or issue that needs to be discussed (not R related), how do you approach it? I've posted that J has said I'm bossy and controlling. I also need to make sure that I don't mother him or tell him what he should be doing. Given that, I'm not always sure of how to approach a problem without sounding critical or bossy. Sometimes it's something I've mentioned before so mentioning it again feels like nagging.
Couple of examples: J leaves his dirty lounge clothes on the chair beside the bed. I pick them up and put them in the laundry every day. Small thing, but we expect the kids to take care of their dirty clothes, so he and I should set an example too. I've asked him several times if he would mind making sure they get into the laundry, but he doesn't. As much as he doesn't want a mommy, I don't like to be the mommy who picks up after him either. Should I just let it go? Let the clothes pile up and ignore it? Put a hamper by the chair?
Another example: Parenting. We have two active, headstrong boys (3 and 6). They are handfuls to say the least. We both adore them of course and they're spoiled rotten. Sometimes J does things that I think he should know better than to do. Yesterday he stopped at the store and brought a christmas stuffy home. He and the boys usually stop on the way out of the store at the crane machine to see if they can win a toy. There have been times when they only win one and then of course he has an unhappy boy if they both don't get a toy. We've had more than a few crying fits over that. I've asked that they don't stop and do that unless he's going to make sure both boys get a toy, or figure out a way to teach them to share that works. I don't understand why he wants to fight that battle at all, but as long as I don't have to deal with it, I stay quiet. Yesterday he came home with one stuffy. He gave it to S6 because it happened to be one that he saw and wanted. It was the last one in the machine, so S3 didnt get one and was upset about it. This morning S3 was up asking J to go and get him a stuffy. Had a little fit that got me out of the bed and I finally got him settled down by letting him play with a christmas toy that's usually not to be touched. I'm anticipating J running to get S3 a toy this afternoon, or if not, S3 havin yet another fit when J gets home.
We also had words last night because J said "boob" in front of the boys and S3 LOVES that word and I've been telling him it's a bad word. J thought it was funny, but I didnt. I don't want our boys to be crude and I thought J felt the same way. I told him he should be setting an example and yeah, it might be humorous when the boys use those words, but teaching them it's OK to use them isn't worth a laugh.
After that, I felt bad because I basically chastised him. Maybe I should have just asked nicely for him to not use those words in front of the kids? We have four kids.. it seems obvious to me that we should know better at this point. This is something he'd never have done with our older boy and girl and now I'm struggling with how to handle it without telling him how to parent. He's a great Dad. He spends so much time with our kids and I'm very thankful for that. My GF said I should let it go, and just be the bad cop on this one and make sure I correct the kids when they need it, but not say anything to J about how he parents. She said Dad's have been leading their boys astray for years with Mommy standing by frowing and it works out. Maybe she's right.. it's kinda like me and D12 buying one too many pairs of shoes and knowing J will have something to say about it, but it's a "girl" thing so we laugh and move on.
Especially for the reminder that we can't be perfect!
He followed me into the bedroom after I took a bath and asked me to sit down by him on the bed. He hugged me and told me that he's sorry this is so hard and that he wants to give me what I need. He was so sweet and encouraging about our future. He said that he loves me and always wants me by his side and that he's happy when we're together. Then he said that he wants to learn my LL and how to give me what I need. He asked me again what would help and asked me to give him specifics. 
He didn't want to take his pain meds because they make him loopy, so we talked about that for a bit and about him putting his health first. He said he didnt want to come home and crash every day. He did take his meds, and we had a good dinner with the kids. He gets so stressed in the afternoons coming home from work. He's always been that way.. the transition is hard for him. It seems he comes home and chews us out and by the time he's relaxed, the rest of us are ticked off. Trying to help him find a way to manage that. I think he doesnt believe it's OK for him to come home and take time for himself to unwind. I'm hoping if I encourage that, he'll see that it's OK and he needs it. 
Tell him you're processing some stuff and you promise you'll talk about it when you have a handle on things. When you do get a handle on things, tell him exactly what you were thinking, including the blaming him part, and how you worked it out in your mind.
I'm inclined to become negative and stuff the thoughts, but instead I called him and said "I'm in the mood to do something racy!" I think it took him off guard, but he played along