She left, came back, still loves OM, what do I do

[kirby]

Hey j,
Yes, I know I'm impatient. I know I'm expecting too much, and wanting quicker pay offs. I'm doing a good job today of not talking to her, although I'd love to go downstairs and ask her how she is doing.

R talks. Since we are 'piecing', and b/c the MC says one of our problems is a lack of communication, and we are taking a communications class, it seems that, if she is willing, we should talk. That's part of the homework for the class. About a week ago, after an R talk, I got a sincere hug, without asking or initiating it. So, I kind of believe talk can be good.

BUT! I do most of the talking. I do need to shut up. My lame excuse (one of many) is that I'm still adjusting to all of this. She has been thinking about it for years. I've had the bomb dropped a couple months ago. I think I'm making progress; talking less, being less emotional, working on some positive times together, goal setting. I use this place to vent feelings I can't say to her, and to check my sanity. Yes, I talk too much, I'm expecting too much.

So I plan on NOT scheduling or initiating any R talks, especially over Christmas. I plan on listening if and when we do have a R talk. Meanwhile, I'll keep doing what I'm doing, even though it doesn't feel like nearly enough.

Am I more impatient than others have been or are?

Thanks J, and I hope it all goes well this Friday when your H comes back.

[toughlover]

Am I more impatient than others have been or are?

No, but IMO you're allowing your impatience to drive your behavior and feelings. This won't be better in a week or a month or two. It's a marathon not a sprint.

The process doesn't care if you're impatient. Your impatience can only hurt the process.

Think of it like this: You want to plant flowers. You find a good spot in your yard that gets the right amount of sun everyday. But there's a shed there so you spend a lot of time relocating the shed. Then you have to prepare the ground.

Does it make sense to cultivate soil, get the ph right, get the right nutrients in there, finally plant the seed, keep it moist...then as soon as a shoot appears, get upset that it isn't already a rose, yank it out of the ground, and start over somewhere else?

Nature doesn't care if you're impatient. The process is the same regardless of what you want it to be.

And lemme tell ya somethin'...allowing emotions and feelings to drive negative behavior is exactly what your wife did when she left and cheated. Just because, in your mind, your purpose and goal is more noble--and I agree that it is, ok?--that doesn't mean we get a free pass either.

For now I think you need to be sure you don't behave in a way that makes your wife regret being there. She MAY regret being there, but that needs to be because of her own problems and struggles, not because you're doing things that make it more difficult.

There's nothing wrong with talking when she wants to. Let her initiate it. Make sure she does most of the talking. Make sure you don't make it extra painful. It's already painful. You both know that.

Don't take this wrong. I think you're doing great and are on the right track.

It will never "feel" like you're doing enough so long as you're trying to win her back because she probably doesn't want to be won back right now.

Once you start doing what helps you be strong and independent, however, it will feel like plenty. And chances are good, though there are no guarantees, that she will notice as well.

[25yearsmlc]

K,
Listen to TL. You are focussing solely on how to get what you want from your wife....consider that. In Chapman's book he says that "REAL LOVE IS NOT ABOUT GETTING WHAT YOU WANT FROM YOUR SPOUSE; IT'S ABOUT DOING WHAT MAKES THEM HAPPY & SUPPORTING THEIR GROWTH..."

What you are doing really is more needy than loving. And btw, what about your work on YOU?? Not just being quiet and listening more when she talks, but about your own flaws...

Just like the rest of us, You have plenty of work to do on YOU, regardless of what your W is going through...do it. Be a better man and do the things you know would help you do that. I mean, some issues on your end have been Identified as flaws to be addressed, but instead you veer away, and instead you focus on your W and what she is thinking/feeling/doing/saying/ going to do/say/think/feel, etc. You just have to stop that. You want to "DO" something? Do your work, on You....

As for your kids....reassure them of two things my mc said: first, reassure them that YOU will ALWAYS be there for them, no matter what else happens in life, or when, you will always be someone they can count on...and how loved they are, and that mommy's going thru something that has NOTHING to do with them, and is a rough patch. Second, if they ask what's going to happen, or seem worried about their interests, tell them that whatever happens, You will do what You believe will make THEM the happiest, THEIR best interests will dictate your course....My d9 seemed comforted greatly by this, AND it was what my DB coach suggested, fwiw.

Here is an issue I had, which you may face down the road. **If one of the kids talks or suggests YOU file/give up/ get a D, tell them you don't want that. Further, since your W is "the love of your life", and "you've loved eachother a long time," you are hanging in there some more....

Good luck, build memories this Christmas. That's it. Build on them and rack up the Daddy/Family/Friend points....After the holidays, you do your GAL work...is that a plan?
j-

[Contyankee]

25yearsmic,

I am sure you are a great attorney, but you could also be a great Psycologist with the sound advice you give, not just to me, but to others I see. God has given you some great gifts and I am sure you are thankful for each one of them. You could be charging a fee, but instead, you do it our of the goodness of your heart. I wish I was a little more like you. Based on your heart and talents, I hope your H realizes the risk he is taking if you decide to leave.
Rocco

[25yearsmlc]

Thank you Rocco.
j-

[kirby]

J,
I hate to admit it, but I’m having a hard time thinking of what I should work on to make myself better. I know that sounds arrogant, but it’s true. When I do think of a fault, I’m not sure if fixing it would be good. For instance, I never show anger. Is this a good time to try to show anger? Other issues seem a little superficial. I’ve started exercising. That doesn’t seem like a flaw I’m trying to fix, it’s just a good idea. I’m thin and in decent shape to begin with. Doing more housework seems superficial sometimes too, or at least to little of a change.

The flaws my wife has identified for me are that I’m needy and she felt she was responsible for my happiness. OK, I’m taking responsibility for my own happiness. Again, in small ways, but I’m a pretty happy guy (was pretty happy, working on it now). As for needy, I’m listening to you and TL and learning, not as quickly as you would like, to pull back, stop expecting, detach, and focus on myself and kids. The MC has told us he didn’t think I was needy, he did say I was too accommodating. How do I change that behavior?

I’ve had boring, unchallenging, go nowhere jobs for a long time. I know my attitude has been affected by that. Now I have a job that may really allow me to grow and enjoy myself. I think that putting more of myself into my job and being happy from that would be a good change. That’s got to be different than most men in this situations. Maybe I was unhappy with my jobs and put too much pressure on my wife to make me happy.

I would love to DO more. Honestly, I don’t know what to do. Maybe small changes, over a long period of time, are enough and are the right thing to do.

How to love her unconditionally and support her growth? Again, all I can think of seems too little and will work over a long period of time. I can be here, take care of all I can to help her, not judge, listen, not expect anything. One thing I can think of that would make her happy is if I left her. I’m not ready to do that though. I’m trying to be ready to let her go if that’s what she wants.

Thanks for the advice about the kids. I spend more time, and more quality time, with them now than I did before. Sometimes I think my W gets jealous of that and I think I should tone it down. But when I examine my motives, I’m being with he kids because I enjoy it, not to impress her or to make her feel bad, so I’ll keep doing it. Again, the change in the time I’m spending with the kids is small; I haven’t suddenly become an active father after being an absent father for years. And I invite the W to join us. Maybe she will someday. I think my kids feel pretty secure, from both me and the W. So far, so good, no acting out, not school problems. But I’d guess they will need more support and issues may come up over time.

And yes, it is a good plan. Christmas will be good (positive self fulfilling prophesy). I will be a good friend, NO R TALK, listen, be positive, and we’ll all have a good time.

fF I don’t talk to you before Christmas, I hope you have a good one too, and that things go well all the way around.

[lilypad]

Hey kirby!

Just browsing around and thought I'd make a comment on something that struck me. It was your thinking that some changes are "too small." Coming from a woman who has pent many year in resentment with dirty dishes, unfolded laundry, and soap scum covered showers... ANY help is BIG help and is appreciated!! My H has begun pitching in (just a little) and it does WONDERS for my attitude. It makes me feel a little less responsible for EVERYTHING which is how I feel alot. That may play into your W's feelings of being responsible for your happiness. I know that part of my drive to keep things "just so" (money, laundry, cleaning, oil changes, holiday decorations) is that I know it makes my husband happy to do so. His mother is a regular Martha Stewart (the middle class kind!). Just wanted you to be aware that what you perceive as small change coule be BIG in her eyes. Be patient though. She may be suspicious of your motives. Just state "I know I need to help out more" and then, just do it. Don't expect accolades or rewards. Just do it out of the goodness of your heart (and if it's a 180!) it will be part of a positive domino effect. Have the kids pitch in too. Make a game of it, it can be fun!

Merry Christmas. Stay focused, stay positive - enjoy your family.

[25yearsmlc]

Kirby,

Yes it is disturbing to "not have any known flaws" as it will slow your growth. Later on that....But as far as being needy, isn't that what you are displaying by all the examining of your W?

Also, look at life and time as a graph with an angle. Say your "regular" life is at 0' but you make a small change of 5'. Over time, can you see where and how far you'd be compared to having stayed at 0'? That's what small changes do, OVER TIME.

I'll post/check before CHristmas. Merry Christmas.
j-

[grasshopper]

I hate to admit it, but I’m having a hard time thinking of what I should work on to make myself better.

It IS arrogant and self-defeating. Maybe there really aren't thing you need to necessarily FIX, but there are most certainly things you can do to make yourself better. If you are unable or unwilling to look deep, it could be a problem.

Actually, I KNOW you can do those things but you resist sometimes.

For instance, I never show anger. Is this a good time to try to show anger?

Well, this is good, but not really if what you mean is you don't GET angry at the time something bothers you yet a month from now you explode because you held it in. You don't have to get angry but learning to express your negative feelings about something in a constructive way would be good.

Remember, anger is not something anyone or anything can MAKE you feel. Anger is not about what someone does to you, it's about what YOU feel about what they do and you can control that.

So, learn to express when things bother you if you really need to, otherwise, learn to actually control your anger instead of stifling it. It's not really an issue of expression or not, it's an issue of whether it's there at all.

Other issues seem a little superficial. I’ve started exercising. That doesn’t seem like a flaw I’m trying to fix, it’s just a good idea. I’m thin and in decent shape to begin with.

Ok, so for you this usual suspect in DB (getting into shape) is not really applicable. That doesn't mean it can't be a GREAT GAL tool. Get to the gym, get some time alone to process things, maybe even meet some new friends. It can't hurt.

Doing more housework seems superficial sometimes too, or at least to little of a change.

Maybe. Is this an issue in your house? Did you used to lay back and let her do all the work? If so, then you doing more around the house is the right thing to do, period. It's not superficial, it's right.

I sense you are still judging EVERYTHING based on how SHE perceives it. You say things are superficial because you think SHE will see it that way. How about judging things based on what you feel is right and wrong. If it's right for you to help out more, then do it. NOTHING is superficial.

The Five Love Languages talks a lot about learning to communicate in our partner's language. You saying the house stuff is "not enough" or "too little" or "superficial" may indeed be true, but it could also be a PRIME indication that you don't know your W's Love Language. Maybe it's Acts of Service and to her, you doing the housework is the most effective way she sees your love. If this is the case, and that is her language, then you could buy her a dozen roses every day, compliment her till the cows come home, kiss her passionately and take her out every night but if you fail to actually DO the house work or HELP her with something she asked you to help with, she feels unloved as much as you might if she never touched you or told you she appreciated your contributions in the R.

The flaws my wife has identified for me are that I’m needy and she felt she was responsible for my happiness.

100% the same thing my W said to me...and she was 100% right, still is to a certain extent. My W said it was like a huge, terrible cross she had to bear.

SO, what do you do with this? You realize that you are still needy and still relying on her to make you happy, or not. You still have not internalized your happiness. You need to reel it in, lock it in a cage inside you and dip into it whenever you need to. Stop revolving ALL your feelings around her. It's bad for you and horrible feeling for her. She's got her own problems, she doesn't need yours too.

Again, in small ways, but I’m a pretty happy guy (was pretty happy, working on it now). As for needy, I’m listening to you and TL and learning, not as quickly as you would like, to pull back, stop expecting, detach, and focus on myself and kids. The MC has told us he didn’t think I was needy, he did say I was too accommodating. How do I change that behavior?

Are you seeing an IC or just the MC? I would suggest, if possible, you start seeing a C by yourself too. I think you might hear some different things from a C who is only interested in helping YOU through your issues and not trying to make both parties feel comfortable with the process.

Your MC may not have thought your were needy in context, but maybe he's tempering that with some other info he has about your R.

Also, have you thought about seeing a female C? I can't speak to having a male C because I have only ever had one C and she's, well, a woman. I just find that she has great insight to a woman's perspective from not only her education, but also her own experience. I guess I just feel like I am getting insight from her that a male C might not have. Maybe something to think about.

I’ve had boring, unchallenging, go nowhere jobs for a long time.

Whose fault was that? Could your acceptance of that status quo for so long have affected the way your W perceived you? I know it did mine because I was in the same sitch for a long time.

Now I have a job that may really allow me to grow and enjoy myself. I think that putting more of myself into my job and being happy from that would be a good change. That’s got to be different than most men in this situations. Maybe I was unhappy with my jobs and put too much pressure on my wife to make me happy.

Ok, so now you have the good job but the damage was already done from you not taking responsibility for making yourself happy, getting a great job, etc. You surely DID put a lot of pressure on your W because of your unhappy career choices. Mars/Venus talks about this, I think. Men derive a lot of their happiness from career related things (as do many women) and when that aspect of their life is not very good, it taints every other aspect, especially their relationships.

I would love to DO more. Honestly, I don’t know what to do.

I assure you this is a big part of the problem. I will use the analogy of deciding where to go for dinner. If, every time your W asks "Honey, where would you like to go for dinner?" you reply "I don't care, it's up to you." she will get VERY sick of that. My point is that if you can't come up with a list of things that would interest, excite and motivate you, then you are not a very self-interested person and thus, not very interesting to your W.

If you were single right now, what would you be doing? Just going to work and coming home to watch TV until bed time? I doubt that.

Maybe small changes, over a long period of time, are enough and are the right thing to do.

Enough? Right things to do? To whom? You? Your W? It still sounds like you can't separate YOUR personal desire to do something from your W's appreciation/approval of it. Who freaking cares if it's ENOUGH or RIGHT? If it's what you want to do, and it's not "wrong" in terms of your marriage vows, then do it.

The point is that you have to become a contributing part of this R again (not saying she is or is not). You have to bring something to the table other than a paycheck and an appetite.

How to love her unconditionally and support her growth? Again, all I can think of seems too little and will work over a long period of time.

It sounds like what you meant to ask was "how do I make her happy? It seems like nothing I do makes her happy and I don't have the patience to just do what I feel is right and let the chips fall..."

You are still doing the "R by numbers" routine. 1) Do something. 2) Wait 5 minutes. 3) Check for reaction from her. 4) If nothing, try something else. 5) Rinse and repeat.

NONE of that suggests you have internal motivation nor patience. Grow both.

If the 2x4 wasn't out yet...watch out!

I can be here, take care of all I can to help her, not judge, listen, not expect anything.

Good freaking lord man, what about DOING SOMETHING FOR YOU and not her? THAT would be doing as much to help your sitch as would standing around waiting for the other shoe to drop.

One thing I can think of that would make her happy is if I left her. I’m not ready to do that though. I’m trying to be ready to let her go if that’s what she wants.

Oh my God, have you listened to ANYTHING we've said? SHE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT SHE WANTS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! I WILL SAY IT AGAIN. SHE DOESN'T FREAKING KNOW WHAT SHE WANTS AND EVEN IF SHE THINKS SHE DOES, SHE'S LIKELY TO CHANGE HER MIND THE NEXT DAY. BELIEVE ONLY 1/2 OF WHAT YOU SEE AND NOTHING OF WHAT YOU HEAR!!!!

Do you have ANY feelings, desires, initiatives, goals, plans, etc, etc, etc of your own? Why would you leave just because she wanted you to? What about what YOU want. Why doesn't SHE leave if she's the one wanting to pursue something different.

I am POSITIVE that this aspect of your personality, always deferring to her, always waiting to make SURE you do what SHE wants it a HUGE issue with her. I'm also sure that if you learned to make up your OWN mind and make your OWN decisions based on your OWN internal compass and not always sticking your toe in her "water" to see how she feels about it, it would go a LONG way in helping your sitch.

I am not saying you need to leave because you feel like you should. What I am saying is that if you want to make a go at this, then do it. If she doesn't like it, or really wants to quit, then let HER go, but you do NOT have to accommodate her in this.

Be ready to let her go because it's what YOU want, which it's not right now so put it out of your mind. Sure, it's good to accept the possible outcomes, but you don't have to embrace them nor help them along.

And yes, it is a good plan. Christmas will be good (positive self fulfilling prophesy). I will be a good friend, NO R TALK, listen, be positive, and we’ll all have a good time.

Where was that plan? Anyway, if this is indeed your plan, to be positive, listen and all that, then yes, it is a GREAT plan. Also the stuff about your kids is good too.

I know your heart is in the right place, you just need your head to catch up.

I wish you a GREAT Christmas and please, just allow yourself to enjoy the days as they come. This time of year can be magical, if only because of the kids.

GH

[Contyankee]

Kirby

Remember, anger is not something anyone or anything can MAKE you feel. Anger is not about what someone does to you, it's about what YOU feel about what they do and you can control that.

So, learn to express when things bother you if you really need to, otherwise, learn to actually control your anger instead of stifling it. It's not really an issue of expression or not, it's an issue of whether it's there at all.
Anger: For instance, I never show anger. Is this a good time to try to show anger?

Well, this is good, but not really if what you mean is you don't GET angry at the time something bothers you yet a month from now you explode because you held it in. You don't have to get angry but learning to express your negative feelings about something in a constructive way would be good.

Don't make the same mistakes I make. I have handled anger like this all my life by holding it in and then exploding. Grasshopper is right on this one. If you must express anger, do so in a loving way, not a condemning way. Instead of saying to your W, "you do this and that and you start attacking her" its better to say it in a calm way and not express it at the time you get angry or it will come out all wrong. STOP AND THINK FIRST. WALK AWAY WHEN YOU START TO FEEL ANGRY. DO SOMETHING PHYSICAL TO RELEASE THE ANGER BE IT GOIN FOR A WALK OR RUN, EXERCISE, WHAT EVER IT TAKES.

BY THE TIME YOU ARE READY TO ADDRESS IT, USE THE "I" STATEMENTS. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU STILL FIND IT UPSETTING, STAY CALM, DO NOT RAIES YOUR VOICE AND APPROACH YOUR W AND SAY; "I FELT HURT WHEN YOU SAID SUCH AND SUCH OR DID SUCH AND SUCH, ETC. HOWEVER, I THINK AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE AND YOUR PARTNER IS NOT, SAY NOTHING!!! DON'T LET THINGS SHE SAYS OR DOES UPSETS YOU. REMEMBER, SHE IS FEELING HURT AND PAIN. WHAT I AM SAYING IS IF YOUR MARRIAGE DOES WORK OUT AND GETS YOU ON THE SAME PAGE, THEN IS THE TIME TO USE THE "I" STATEMENTS IN A LOVING AND CALM WAY. Right now, I am in the same boat as you are.Does anybody agree with what I said?
Rocco