She left, came back, still loves OM, what do I do

[kirby]

I haven’t been on a bb before and I don’t feel I’m navigating in here very well, but I’m eager to get my story out there and to see if any of you can give me advise, encouragement, and insights.

My immediate story started 2 months ago. My W told me she loved me but was not ‘in love’ with me. She had met someone else, but had not physically met with him. It was her old HS first love who lived in another state. She said she couldn’t stand to stay at home and she was leaving to be with him. I more or less begged her to give me time, to go to counseling that I would change. She was resolved to leave.

She left a few days later. She told me that she had been miserable for about 8 years and that she had been thinking of leaving before her old flame contacted her.

The day before she left, my wife and I sat with the kids and told them mom was leaving. We told them that she would always be their mom and that we loved them and it wasn’t their fault. They took it better than I did.

I got on line, found DB, and was desperate to do something to save my M. I bought the DB book and started reading. I called soon after and made an appointment with a counselor.

For the next month, sent my wife a few emails concerning financial matters. She called the kids almost daily. I was amazed at how well I picked up the slack and ran the household and took care of the kids. By the 3rd week, I was starting to recover. Because she hadn’t communicated with me, and because I was afraid she would try to take the kids, especially after her mother told me she might, I contacted a lawyer.

I was in the lawyer’s office when my W called me. She asked if she could come back. I said yes, if she gave up the OM and agreed to work on the M/R.

So she was gone for a month. Now she has been back for a month. We have started counseling. Things are better than I think I have a right to hope for, but so very hard. She is still in love with the OM and trying to decide what she wants. I feel all my efforts are wasted until she decides. I know I have to be patient. I’m trying to work on myself and goals while I’m waiting. But it seems so hard and painful to be so close to her and so far apart.

Like most stories, there is much more to this, but I’m trying to keep it short.

Any comments? Any ideas? Do I have a chance?

[toughlover]

Well, I've been in a similar sitch, not exactly the same, but I know what it's like to be working on a marriage when your wife has just given up her adultery partner.

She asked if she could come back. I said yes, if she gave up the OM and agreed to work on the M/R.

Good boundaries, and she agreed, so that's good. Now that she's back, you know you've really got to give her space so long as she's living up to her commitments, right? In a way that's sort of compensation to her right now for doing the right thing. She needs to get an immediate benefit since she's going to be trying to beat her addiction to the OM.

We have started counseling.

That's excellent, especially if the counselor is solution-oriented and believes in marriage. If not, find a better one.

Things are better than I think I have a right to hope for, but so very hard.

Oh, man, I've been there. Occasionally still am, though it's getting to be mostly all good. It's going to be hard for a while. You need to get yourself to a strong place as an individual, and that's the toughest, scariest part of all. But it pays huge, no matter what your wife ultimately decides. And if you do it, you have the best shot at saving things (so do the DB stuff!).

She is still in love with the OM and trying to decide what she wants.

Yeah well that "in love" stuff only gets them so far cause it's not got enough juice to get you through real life. It's to real committed love what a good song on the radio or really nice upholstery is to driving a car. Your car will get you from point A to point B whether the radio works or not. A car radio without a car, however, won't do much for you. The "in love" stuff is the same way. When your marriage is really good, all the feelings make it even better just like having a radio playing good music will make the ride more enjoyable. But first things first. Get your marriage running properly and the rest will follow in time.

I feel all my efforts are wasted until she decides.

Well, that depends on what your efforts are. If you can achieve right actions, none of that is wasted unless your expectations are too unrealistic or rushed!

The reality is that the proper efforts aren't wasted if you're doing them for you, you will get almost immediate returns for yourself and probably your kids. If you mean they're wasted on your wife, that's not entirely true. You may not see immediate payback from her for your efforts, although you may see just a little, but if you stay the course and this works over time, you'll see real benefits long-term, you just probably won't see the effects right now.

I know I have to be patient.

Understatement of the year! Very difficult to do. This is probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do and the being patient part is really tough. No way to do it but to just do it, I'm afraid. It, too, pays off one way or another though.

I’m trying to work on myself and goals while I’m waiting.

Good, but as we say around the toughlover home, "trying is lying." Just do it! You can, and you'll be glad you did. Just have to trust me on that one.

But it seems so hard and painful to be so close to her and so far apart.

Yes it is. And it may even hurt more before it gets better. But if you do the stuff you're supposed to (DB stuff), and realize that you can't choose for her. Love is, at it's heart, a choice, not a feeling. So far, she's chosen you and your family. That is the right stuff to build a loving marriage on. You are both going to be tested and it will be very difficult, and many days seems absolutely hopeless.

Things got much better for me when I simply decided, in my case because of who God is and who he calls me to be, to simply be the husband and father I wanted to be, I was supposed to be, whether I got anything from my W or not. Once I started doing that (acting "as if" as the Db'ers say), things changed for the better. Slowly at first. Don't tell her, GIVE her the kind of husband and family any mature woman would love to have, without pursuing her or pressuring her. Chances are good that she'll come around eventually. And even if she doesn't, you and your kids will benefit. That's your best shot.

[kirby]

Thanks so much toughlover.

It's hard and confusing. But I'll do it (not try )

Maybe you could help with some trouble spots. For starters, changing myself and being the person I want to be. I can think of a few small things I can do, but basically, I kind of like myself. My W did a bit of an exercise to see what needs I meet and don't meet, and she told me I basically meet them all. Is small change enough? Doing things I want to do is a big one, having more confidence is something I'm working on, and now that I finally have a job I think I'm going to like, that will be a good change too.

Another tricky part for me. The OM is her first love from H.S. She has always been infatuated with him. I don't see how I can win, even though she has cut off all communication with him. I try hard not to think about it, it's nothing I can control, but it makes me feel that this is hopeless.

Also, I had an A few years ago. My W didn't know about it, but suspected. I realized the A wasn't going to solve my problems and I cut off the R with the OW completely. My W says she isn't really bothered by my A, but I suspect she is. I have confessed the A to her.

Her being 'in love' with the OG. I've tried to tell her what you told me; that she's infatuated, living in the heat of the moment, etc. and that although her feelings are real, they won't last. She hates me telling her that. I think she believes her feelings are different, more real, and will last. Again, how can I compete or win?

She also feels DBing is a trick, or a way to 'trick' her into coming back. I've tried to explain that it's a tool, it can't force her to decide or act a different way. An alcoholic learns tricks to change their behaviour. It makes him or her a better person. Isn't this the same?

I'll continue to work on this, and especially continue to work on myself, setting goals, trying to understand what makes me happy, what I need, and what kind of a person I want to be. That way, if she does choose the OG, I'll still have gained something. I don't think it can make up for the loss, but it's something.

So, this stuff, piecing, takes how long? Years? Decades? does it ever get easier?

[grasshopper]

First off, stop with the strategy sessions with her. Don't tell her ANYTHING about what you're reading or doing. Let her SEE it for herself and THEN it will be real to her, not just some trick you're trying out on her. This is REALLY important.

y W did a bit of an exercise to see what needs I meet and don't meet, and she told me I basically meet them all.

Um, pardon me for saying so, but BS. She's either lying to you, herself or both...that, or the "little bit" you aren't meeting is 90% of what she needs from a man. Maybe you are a GREAT listener, compliment her all the time, take her out, etc, but you never help around the house and you don't ML to her with the passion of a lover.

Sure, you do a lot, but that little bit may be the BIG difference to her.

Again, I suspect there is only part of the truth in whatever this exercise revealed to you both.

Also, I had an A few years ago. My W didn't know about it, but suspected. I realized the A wasn't going to solve my problems and I cut off the R with the OW completely. My W says she isn't really bothered by my A, but I suspect she is. I have confessed the A to her.

She isn't bothered by your A because she found a way to deal with it...she had one herself. If she said at the time, when she found out about it (was that AFTER or before you found out about hers BTW?), that she was "ok" with it, then there is some SERIOUS denial going on. She never processed that at all and I suspect it caused serious resentment, anger and drive for revenge in her.

IF she found out about it AFTER you knew about hers, well, she can't really fault you for doing what she now knows is "right" can she? She would be calling herself out, would she not?

Her being 'in love' with the OG. I've tried to tell her what you told me; that she's infatuated, living in the heat of the moment, etc. and that although her feelings are real, they won't last. She hates me telling her that. I think she believes her feelings are different, more real, and will last. Again, how can I compete or win?

As I said before. You can't TELL HER THIS STUFF. Stop doing that right now! She will resent the hell out of you for diagnosing her "love" as some kind of disease.

A large part of DBing is learning how to validate her feelings and what you are doing here is 100% opposite here and it's making her feel like you don't listen to, respect or care about her. The trick is to learn to validate without condoning her actions.

W: I am in love with him and I don't see how I will ever get past that. Things between us suck compared to how things are when I am with him.
Y: I understand how you feel. It must feel terrible to be caught between things like this. I know our past has not been the best and understand how a future between us might not look that great. I don't agree, but I do understand how you might feel that way.

In the end, you don't compete. You can't compete, so you don't try. What she has/had with you is different, and in some ways, mainly because of all the trouble it would be to leave you, inherently "better". If you can make the necessary changes (er...take a step back...identify the necessary changes and THEN make them) you could begin to paint a new picture for her of what the future COULD be like with you. Without change though, she's not likely to replace that muddy, crappy, bleak view of your R that she has with anything else.

She also feels DBing is a trick, or a way to 'trick' her into coming back. I've tried to explain that it's a tool, it can't force her to decide or act a different way. An alcoholic learns tricks to change their behaviour. It makes him or her a better person. Isn't this the same?

DO NOT EVER MENTION DB/DR OR ANY OTHER BOOK/SITE TO HER AGAIN! IT DOES NOT HELP AND CHEAPENS WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AS YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN.

I'll continue to work on this, and especially continue to work on myself, setting goals, trying to understand what makes me happy, what I need, and what kind of a person I want to be. That way, if she does choose the OG, I'll still have gained something. I don't think it can make up for the loss, but it's something.

So, this stuff, piecing, takes how long? Years? Decades? does it ever get easier?

Yes, start there.

In terms of how much time it takes, each sitch is different. A lot depends on your honesty with yourself, her honesty with you and your real desire to make things better. We all agree that it will eventually take both of you to do this, but for now, you have the wheel. Start driving!

GH

[toughlover]

First off, listen to GH.

Here's my take on some stuff...

I can think of a few small things I can do, but basically, I kind of like myself. My W did a bit of an exercise to see what needs I meet and don't meet, and she told me I basically meet them all. Is small change enough? Doing things I want to do is a big one, having more confidence is something I'm working on, and now that I finally have a job I think I'm going to like, that will be a good change too.

Any positive change is good.

Another tricky part for me. The OM is her first love from H.S. She has always been infatuated with him. I don't see how I can win, even though she has cut off all communication with him. I try hard not to think about it, it's nothing I can control, but it makes me feel that this is hopeless.

Nothing's hopeless even if you and your wife split for good, because if she's the kind of person who values immature romance and infatuation (aka "magic", "being in love") that is built on the destruction of a family and her own character, then you have to let her make that choice and let it go...my point being that if you're truly putting 100% into being the best husband and father you can be, and she rejects your best, then you're better off without her, at least until she comes to her senses. But you need to give her the space to see what her choice really is.

In the mean time, if you two can do things together and have an enjoyable time, take her to do some things she's never done before...do some new things that are uncharacteristic of you or that she wouldn't expect you to do...especially if there are things she likes to do that you don't. It doesn't matter that you don't. As her husband, you've committed yourself to being her recreational partner for life, so go to it. If she likes to dance and you don't, take her dancing. Anything she has any kind of interest in.

One thing that was big with me and Mrs. TL very early on is, after years of being married and doing almost nothing alone together, I started taking her out once or twice a week, going to different restaurants, going to shoot pool, just going out and letting the night be our guide. We didn't spend a lot of money. But I figured, hey, she was cheating for years in secret with some OM where all she could really do was go meet him in secret and have sex, so a great way to meet a need she has (go out, have fun) and to do a 180 (I never did that before) and get something going in my direction that the OM couldn't do, I started taking her out for a fun, light good time.

Paid off in spades. Can't say that's what you need to do, but you get the picture?

But do something new and different, or find something she likes that you never did before, and do it when you can without expecting anything in return. There's a lot of talk around here about how many women want to be taken on an adventure but they don't want to BE the adventure. An adventure doesn't have to be some major exotic thing. Just something new and different.

Her being 'in love' with the OG. I've tried to tell her what you told me; that she's infatuated, living in the heat of the moment, etc. and that although her feelings are real, they won't last. She hates me telling her that. I think she believes her feelings are different, more real, and will last. Again, how can I compete or win?

Uh, that was for your understanding, your ears (eyes?) only, bro. Ditto what GH said about this. Of course she hates you telling her that because you're revealing your ignorance in her eyes: as far as she's concerned, her "love" for the OM is real, is bubbly, makes her feel alive, <insert nauseating adjective here>, and she wants that. There's nothing wrong with wanting that. What's wrong is wanting that with someone who's not your spouse. But when she thinks about your marriage, she doesn't see how that would ever be possible between you two, and then when you make her "feel like a science experiment" (what my W said when i did the same thing as you) that you're dissecting, you just repulse her.

You're playing tug-of-war with someone who's tied her end of the rope to a bulldozer and is sitting in the driver's seat wondering when you're going to figure it out, and you're so busy straining and trying to win that you can't see you're playing a game you can't win except by refusing to play.

You have to drop the rope.

That doesn't mean quitting. It means stop playing her game by her rules. She thinks the future is the past written in stone. Nothing will ever be different between you two, so why bother?

It's not just about you changing because you don't "need" to (bet this ain't true...most of us LBS are LBS because we quit on our M long before our WAS had an A), it's about finding something new in your life, and in life in general, that you two can share.

And you have to treat her great. You have to treat your kids great. You have to take care of business, and take care of yourself, and get to where you're strong on your own...not in an arrogant way, not to win her back, but because it's what's always been best for you anyway.

Like someone else on here said once, "If you're not the problem, you can't be the solution." So your job is to identify any areas in which you've been or are being a problem, and QUIT BEING A PROBLEM!

Once you've quit being a problem in your marriage, the choice will be more clear to her.

So, this stuff, piecing, takes how long? Years? Decades?

No way to know. A lot of what I've read says it takes at least 6 months or so for someone, especially a woman "in love", to begin to get past their addiction to an affair partner and feel ready to really invest in someone else.

I can tell you this from my experience: I've made some pretty decent progress but only because I got out of the way, quit trying to analyze everything with my W, and just kept my mouth shut and starting DOING what needed DOING. She noticed, and because she was willing to try (even though she didn't "want to", didn't have any feelings for me at first), it made a big difference.

does it ever get easier?

If you are willing to take the high road, then yes, it gets easier because you end up in a position of freedom, peace, and strength, and if you are willing to face your fears, your own character flaws that helped create this mess, and pay the price to get there, then you will find that the air is sweeter and you are able to respond constructively to what happens in your life, and may help to light your wife's way back to you.

Though it will take a while, it's worth it because you will find that your sense of well-being and self-worth doesn't come from your wife and isn't tied to what she does or doesn't do.

Our MC described it like this: you can't make a seed grow, only God and nature can do that. What you can do is create the optimum environment for growth. Keep the soil fertile, the conditions right, get rid of the weeds (hint), and stay the course.

[kirby]

GH,
Thanks for the reply. Some of what you say, I knew from reading the book, but I need to be told again and again. All of it I think is useful.

I get the point. Don’t tell her about the book, the theory, what I’m doing. Let her see it. That seems a little dishonest, but I think I see your point.

Obviously, I am not, was not, meeting an important need of hers. If she doesn’t know what that need is, it makes it a little harder for me to figure it out. Our MT is helping. Also, if I concentrate on me and how I can improve myself for myself, maybe that will meet her need too.

She suspected my A before she left. She told me that’s one of the ways she knew she wasn’t ‘in love’ with me anymore, because she didn’t really care about the affair. When she was leaving, and I was begging, I told her I had ‘almost’ had an A. I told her that because I was explaining that I knew what it was like; the excitement and overwhelming desire, and that she should slow down and think before she left. Yeah, that argument worked well. By the way, in my mind, it was almost an A because when I realized that I was actually considering leaving my family for the OW, and what pain it would cause, I stopped the affair. I guess that’s a rather Clintonian view of As.

What do DBers mean by don’t believe or trust anything your S does or says?

Just having a place to share my story and to get advice is helping me be strong. I want to give back to this forum. I hope my story, and the responses, will help others in similar situations. The main point I’m getting from all of this is that you can only control and change yourself. Work on yourself. Let the rest take care of itself as much as possible. Am I right?

[toughlover]

What do DBers mean by don’t believe or trust anything your S does or says?

I think it's more like, "Don't believe half of what they say, and ignore the other half." It's because when someone is in that bizarre mindset, they say and do things to provoke you, or they say things that are really more to convince themselves, or they base their thoughts and words on feelings that aren't going to last.

If you get distracted by that stuff and believe it yourself, you won't even want to try. However, if you simply make the proper changes in yourself and your life, and live it in front of their eyes, they will have to confront the reality of what they're doing.

That seems a little dishonest, but I think I see your point.

I don't see it as dishonest. There's nothing "magic" or manipulative about the DB techniques...all they are really designed to do is to help you become a strong, loving individual whose self-worth is not determined by another person's behavior toward you, and to perhaps give you some tips for getting your spouse's attention.

If you don't make the changes for real, the spouse ain't gonna be swayed anyway. And you can make those same changes regardless of whether you read the book or not.

But discussing it with the WAS just provides them a distraction from the issues and they can say stuff like, "You're just doing this because it's in a book, it isn't real" and stuff like that. The idea is to simply and quietly become a stronger, better person before their eyes, over time. That's powerful because they think the future is the past written in stone...i.e., YOU will always behave and act exactly like you have in the past.

The other part of that is, you need to SHOW them a new you, not TELL them about a new you, because telling them about a new you is just relationship talk, and they don't want to do that.

Also, WAS don't want to see you improve because that makes their choice so much more difficult, and makes them look even worse for making it. And, it makes them feel like you're patronizing and trying to manipulate them.

That's not the case, because you have to truly change and grow, but it's a convenient excuse for them to use to justify their own flawed mindset.

[kirby]

I haven't figured out how to use the Quote function yet, so I'll cut and paste.

Quote....
"Don't believe half of what they say, and ignore the other half." It's because when someone is in that bizarre mindset, they say and do things to provoke you..."

Does that mean you shouldn't believe them when they say the things you want to hear (except the one thing you want to hear,that they are in love with you again)? My wife says many of the things I want to hear, and she acts with caring toward me. She is honest and tells me she still loves the OM, and not me, but am I wrong for having hope based on her actions and words? Maybe I need a good slap of reality.

[toughlover]

Does that mean you shouldn't believe them when they say the things you want to hear (except the one thing you want to hear,that they are in love with you again)?

No, it just means ignore the crap that is meant to provoke you, and don't get all over-inflated with expectation when they say something you like. You need to understand this that while it's important to truly listen when SHE truly wants to talk, and you need to truly listen when they make it clear when you're doing something to upset them, you need to base your actions on your own choice to be the kind of husband you want to be, not on her responses. She needs to see that you care enough to give her some space and breathing room but that you're still there taking care of business without letting her get you so down that you can't function positively.

My wife says many of the things I want to hear, and she acts with caring toward me.

And that's nice, and anytime they back up their words with actions, that's a positive sign. But the danger is in reading too much into that, inflating your expectations, because the next step is going to be severe disappointment which could make you respond badly. It's a good sign. Treat is as such, and move on.

She is honest and tells me she still loves the OM, and not me, but am I wrong for having hope based on her actions and words?

That's your choice. I personally think you're wanting to bark up the wrong tree, but there's nothing wrong with having a little hope, and that is some positive stuff, but the problem is that the temptation will be for you to start tying your well-being and hopefulness into how good or badly she treats you or responds to you, and that will get you into trouble.

You need to do what you need to do regardless of the immediate effects (or lack thereof) it has on her. I mean, she could still leave again. Women do that all the time. But you really hold all the cards, the key is in becoming the person you need to be and being strong through this. When she starts seeing you as respectful of her space, strong, and committed to doing what's right for you and your family, while recognizing her freedom to reject that, you have your best shot at looking better and better to her. But it has to be real, not just a trick.

Maybe I need a good slap of reality

You've come to the right place

[grasshopper]

Kirby,

You are in good hands with TL. TL, I think I'll leave this one to you for now. Great advice.

GH